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China planning 'world's fastest train' from Beijing to Shanghai - Telegraph
China is planning to build the world's fastest bullet train, to link Beijing with the financial capital Shanghai.

In a sign the country's ambitions to go faster, higher and bigger have not been dimmed by the end of the Olympics, the Ministry of Railways says it is raising the speed it intends the new line connecting the cities to reach when it opens in 2012.

New technology will enable trains to travel at 380 km or 236 miles an hour, 30 km per hour (18mph) more than the current generation of bullet trains, according to the ministry's deputy chief engineer, Zhang Shuguang.

"It is possible that we can start to manufacture 380 km/h trains in two years' time, and put them into service on the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway," he said, according to state media.

The high-speed line from Beijing to Shanghai has been an on-off project for several years, but work finally began in April.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am veeery sceptical.

Purely on power and speed, they could still go for it with present technology, but accepting as drawbacks:

  • very high energy usage,
  • very high noise,
  • uncomfortable run for passengers,
  • high track wear (meaning more maintenance, quicker track replacement, and thus much higher infrastructure costs),
  • reduced safety and/or train frequency.

Spain (Siemens Velaro, Talgo 350) and Japan (JR East test trains) had trouble at 350-360 km/h, the latter even gave up on the idea. China itself failed with a massive project to develop just a standard 300 km/h regular service train from a domestic product line, then purchased 250-300 km/h trains from around the world with technology transfer - but 380 km/h would be entirely new terrain to develop.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...which doesn't mean that I'd doubt that high-speed trains would do 380 km/h, even 400 km/h in the future; but not soon, and not after the inauguration of Beijing-Shanghai.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be willing to bet that there are significant improvements in railroad aerodynamic drag that will be developed. The current shape of trains is in no way aerodynamic, compared to a low drag car.

Even advanced "maglev" trains are pretty crude from the airflow viewpoint.

by asdf on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 06:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that lower picture the new Chuo express line in Japan?  I've seen promotional posters in various places about it, but didn't know if it was actually under construction or just a project proposal.
by Zwackus on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Methinks its a photo on the test track built in the eighties.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I'd see the need of testing tunnel aerodynamics, building a test track in mountaineous terrain sounds expensive ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With all flat areas in Japan built up and land prices prior to the end of the Japanese housing market crash, I'm not so sure...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, the whole route they're planning for the Chuo is mountains.  Chuo means center, and it would run right through the center of Japan from Tokyo to Kyoto/Osaka, through a route that's at least 70% mountain.  If they built the test track on part of the proposed route, it'd save money later, I guess.

And the train looks identical to the ones in the promo posters.  And with that style of big stone retaining wall in the background, I think it could only be in Japan.

by Zwackus on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are of course right, the photo shows the world record holder (581 km/h) MLX01 train on the 18.4 km Yamanashi Test Track (I think exactly here, looking Westward); of which, according to Wikipedia, 16.0 km(!) are in tunnels. (BTW, further to asdf, the two end cars have different designs, and one was further optimised aerodynamically with an even longer nose, see photos on Japanese Wiki) I checked and found that I was off concerning the time of construction: the original test track was built in the seventies, while the current one (different location) in 1990-1996, thus after the Japanese real estate/asset price bubble burst.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 06:31:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm, it may look crude, but I bet it has pretty good airflow. It's just that with one seat, three gears and a high body, you can have more elegant curving lines than for a wide-bodied, long rail-riding something. Also, the best aerodynamic shape for a train is something not sleek but un-aesthetic: the 'duckbill' shape displayed by the Talgo350, the newer Shinkansens, and (moderately) by the French AGV (better resistance to the toppling forces of side winds).

High-speed train shape and external surface count most in noise. Both the French AGV and the JR East Fastech prototypes tried their utmost. There was also the idea to reduce drag by applying the pattern of shark skin, but that's difficult, and what about all the dirt and bugs collected up from the air ahead of the train.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As an example of the ugly duckbill shape referred to downthread, here is the most modern Shinkansen, the Series N700 (a 300 km/h full-speed tilting train)sporting the arguably best aerodynamics of in-service trains today:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and here is a picture of the 1:20 model of a German Railways ICE train with 'shark skin' (or golf ball?) surface in a wind canal:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FYI It is normally and colloquially referred to as a wind tunnel.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, sorry for the momentary lapse into Germanisms...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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