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Natural gas shortages are likely to happne faster in America than oil shortages, given that natgas is harder to transport, and North American production is declining (the 3 countries, US Canada and Mexico are each in decline). LNG is expected to grow, but is a lot more expensive given that its price is driven by what Japan is willing to pay (ie quite a bit more than the US).

Natgas prices are even more likely to shoot up than those of oil in the next few years. And CNG is not even very energy efficient.

Go for plug-in hybrid school buses.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 08:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree. American nat gas production just left the 10 year plateau, but not by falling of a cliff but by surging 9 % because of the new gas shale plays.

Further, 20 % of American power is generated by gas. This can be cut without problem. Home heating can also be repalced with alternatives. This will free up vast amounts of gas to fuel vehicles.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 08:53:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This can be cut without problem

What is the policy that targets natural gas for being eliminated from the electrical power supply?

Replacing of a substantial share of home heating with geothermal-assisted heat pumps, that I can see if supported by substantial Connie Mae financial support to finance the higher up front cost out of the energy savings ...

... but it seems the first priority in a strong program to increase sustainable renewable electricity supply should be retiring coal-fired power, and I am curious how a policy of eliminating gas-fired power is compatible with that first priority.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the policy that targets natural gas for being eliminated from the electrical power supply?



Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 11:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... to a much higher share of windpower ... thermal coal takes much quicker to ramp up ... or else they are idled "hot", emitting CO2 without delivering power to the grid ... so the storage you need to bridge between downturns in wind output and ramping up the back-up generation is greater for coal than for gas ... and capital intensity of coal power plants is higher than for natural gas, which is another factor making natural gas preferable for intermittent back up.

And in terms of the first priority, every BTU of wind that displaces natural gas is a BTU that could have displaced coal, for much better reduction in GHG emissions ... so until all mineral coal power production is taken off line, I don't see the appeal of a plan that keeps coal on line so that natural gas can be taken off.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 01:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, a massive increase in wind power can practically eliminate gas power.

First, remember that there is a lot of base load (!) gas power in the US. Second, a robust continent-sized HVDC grid (which you'll need to get all that "stranded wind" to the consumers) should smooth out the intermittency. And for those days when that isn't enough, the gas plants are still there and can be fed a little gas until the situation rights itself.

When it comes to coal you can replace it with nuclear, MW for MW and BTU for BTU.

And I don't worry terribly much about GHG emissions. Peak oil is my bogeyman.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 05:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... technology that provides a back-up power supply.

But that only answers half the question ... why replace the lesser of two evils in terms of fossil fuel electricity while leaving the greater of two evils alone.

It does not answer the second half of the question ... how to rig the policy so that it is, in fact, natural gas taken off line, when on in a pure commercial calculation, expanding wind power increases the appeal of natural gas turbines compared to thermal coal.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You misunderstood me. Nuclear is inflexible and will have a hard time replacing gas in the peak role. But it works in the baseload, and I did write that nuclear should replace coal, not gas.

For the second half of your question, the policy is simply a blanket ban on building new coal plants or upgrading the current ones in such a way that they consume more coal.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nuclear is inflexible and will have a hard time replacing gas in the peak role. But it works in the baseload, and I did write that nuclear should replace coal, not gas.

And among the non-renewable energy sources, gas remains a more natural complement to wind than either nuclear or coal.

The second half of the question is how to rig the system to force out natural gas. Any policy that successfully promotes wind will differentially push out coal rather than natural gas, so channeling the displacement from coal to natural gas requires an additional policy intervention.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thermal coal takes much quicker to ramp up

Thermal coal takes much longer to ramp up.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 07:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the "unconventional" in this figure?

With conventional natural gas in decline in Canada, the US and Mexico, and in Canada and the US, at least, seeming to be heading rapidly toward break-even on EROI, will the gas shale be able to take up all of the conventional production decline?


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of sounding cornucopian: don't underestimate the power of new technology and high prices both on the demand and the supply side. At least for gas (not really for oil, supply is kinda screwed there).

But the fact is that while the gas shales have been known for decades, everyone has been terribly suprised at how thing have developed during the last year or so.

Exploring and drilling for oil is by its nature an uncertain and unpredictable affair, and gas is even worse. The extent of resource is not known. Depending on a host of different factors the size could vary by one order of magnitude.

But one thing is sure (IIRC): these shales are drilling intensive. Decline rates can be very high in an individual well, at times up to 50 %. So you need to drill new wells all the time.

Hey, maybe I should buy some shares in US onshore drillers? ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 05:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you are saying that the gas shale plays start out at low Energy Return on Investment and individual wells play out quite rapidly.

Or, in other words, we know next to nothing as to whether it can replace conventional natural gas as it plays out, or whether it will be a flash in the pan.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about the EROI. No one knows if shale gas will be massive or not. If prices stay low, it certainly won't become massive.

Such is life.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... EROI in conventional natural gas is how long the field produces, since the biggest part of the energy input is the drilling.

If you say that shale natural gas requires constant drilling, then its best case EROI has to be below the best case that was experienced with conventional natural gas.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, while decline rates are often high, then so are initial production flows. Especially with horizontal drilling and hydrofracing.

Somewhere I've read that while conventional gas is like pushing all the air out of an air matress, shale plays are more like, well, farts. ;P

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I have read here in Arkansas papers and in Barron's on the energy companies, such as Chesapeak Oil, extraction of gas from shale formations involves horizontal drilling from a primary shaft combined with fracturing of the formation.  It is the combination of higher prices and more robust technology that has made such plays attractive.

If they are going to be flashes in the pan, there are going to be a lot of very disappointed companies out there.  Coverage in the local press indicates productive lives of over 10 years for these fields.  Rework of a field is less expensive, as it involves reuse of the original vertical shaft.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 07:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wanted to put the idea out there to benefit from other's knowledge.  I didn't know if it was a good idea or not.  That is why I used the word "may."  I had hoped that there might be an interim path that would ease the transition.  A conversation with my LA mechanic, who builds stock cars, off road vehicles and movie specials and is very knowledgeable, has just blown up that idea.  It appears that the only thing that can be done with existing diesel buses is to make them into more compact rectangles of steel.

Thanks for the link to the IC Corp. hybrid buses.  They appear to be available.  If each bus traveled 20,000 miles per year and got 10 mpg, with diesel at $4.50/gal. a 100% improvement in mileage would provide a $4,500/ year fuel savings per bus per year.  Helpful, but only a small fraction of the cost to replace the bus.  

I have no idea of the age of our local bus fleet, but would think this might be the way to go for replacements. Part of the problem will be that diesel buses will become, if they are not already, a drug on the market. If they still have substantial value there could be a race to see who can trade their diesels in before the price collapses.

 

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 03:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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