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What is the policy that targets natural gas for being eliminated from the electrical power supply?

Replacing of a substantial share of home heating with geothermal-assisted heat pumps, that I can see if supported by substantial Connie Mae financial support to finance the higher up front cost out of the energy savings ...

... but it seems the first priority in a strong program to increase sustainable renewable electricity supply should be retiring coal-fired power, and I am curious how a policy of eliminating gas-fired power is compatible with that first priority.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the policy that targets natural gas for being eliminated from the electrical power supply?



Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 11:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... to a much higher share of windpower ... thermal coal takes much quicker to ramp up ... or else they are idled "hot", emitting CO2 without delivering power to the grid ... so the storage you need to bridge between downturns in wind output and ramping up the back-up generation is greater for coal than for gas ... and capital intensity of coal power plants is higher than for natural gas, which is another factor making natural gas preferable for intermittent back up.

And in terms of the first priority, every BTU of wind that displaces natural gas is a BTU that could have displaced coal, for much better reduction in GHG emissions ... so until all mineral coal power production is taken off line, I don't see the appeal of a plan that keeps coal on line so that natural gas can be taken off.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 01:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, a massive increase in wind power can practically eliminate gas power.

First, remember that there is a lot of base load (!) gas power in the US. Second, a robust continent-sized HVDC grid (which you'll need to get all that "stranded wind" to the consumers) should smooth out the intermittency. And for those days when that isn't enough, the gas plants are still there and can be fed a little gas until the situation rights itself.

When it comes to coal you can replace it with nuclear, MW for MW and BTU for BTU.

And I don't worry terribly much about GHG emissions. Peak oil is my bogeyman.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 05:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... technology that provides a back-up power supply.

But that only answers half the question ... why replace the lesser of two evils in terms of fossil fuel electricity while leaving the greater of two evils alone.

It does not answer the second half of the question ... how to rig the policy so that it is, in fact, natural gas taken off line, when on in a pure commercial calculation, expanding wind power increases the appeal of natural gas turbines compared to thermal coal.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You misunderstood me. Nuclear is inflexible and will have a hard time replacing gas in the peak role. But it works in the baseload, and I did write that nuclear should replace coal, not gas.

For the second half of your question, the policy is simply a blanket ban on building new coal plants or upgrading the current ones in such a way that they consume more coal.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 06:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nuclear is inflexible and will have a hard time replacing gas in the peak role. But it works in the baseload, and I did write that nuclear should replace coal, not gas.

And among the non-renewable energy sources, gas remains a more natural complement to wind than either nuclear or coal.

The second half of the question is how to rig the system to force out natural gas. Any policy that successfully promotes wind will differentially push out coal rather than natural gas, so channeling the displacement from coal to natural gas requires an additional policy intervention.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thermal coal takes much quicker to ramp up

Thermal coal takes much longer to ramp up.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 07:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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