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Stripped of all culture, which is clearly a "natural" state for human beings...

The philosophical non-starters we inherit from the likes of Rousseau...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:37:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rousseau and just about evey other political philosopher in the Early Modern period... (wiki)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:39:55 AM EST
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It's part of a broader affliction among philosophers to look for an original starting point upon which to formulate principles. These turn out to be fictions, or thought experiments. And as thought experiments in ethics go, the state of nature is a piss-poor one.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:32 AM EST
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Apparently bloggers are also afflicted.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:57:59 AM EST
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The lot of them.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:00:32 AM EST
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Yeeaaah. Rah!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:23:52 AM EST
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How do you strip humans of culture?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:45:03 AM EST
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Apart from exposure to reality TV, of course.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:45:56 AM EST
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Taking a cue from InWales, maybe a reality TV show on a desert island would produce a state of nature...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:54:57 AM EST
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Good question. IMO unpossible.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:22:10 AM EST
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Exactly, it would be an impossible thing to try to define yet the word 'natural' is used so often with the meaning implicitly assumed and yet never discussed.

The closest I could try to articulate would be how would male and female roles fall into place were a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...  My first thought there is that it would largely be determined by the environment they were living in and thus would vary.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...

And none carried over from whatever communities these people come from...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:53:02 AM EST
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Perhaps like Celebrity Love Island.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:54:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean Celebrity Love Island participants carry over no culture from their societies of origin?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:56 AM EST
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They are 'celebrities'.  I didn't think they lived in the real world anyway.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:03:17 AM EST
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Okay, so from the Celebrity subculture which they share (and the rest of us are force-fed through the daily media we consume).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:41:10 AM EST
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Contain large sets of human rules (like 'winning')
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:58:38 AM EST
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Even without that, participants are not lobotomised, and they share a language and a broader cultural background.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:00:16 AM EST
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Environment - economics in the wide sense really - constrains culture in the long run but it doesn't determine it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:14 AM EST
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Whereas culture may well be said to exercise, to some extent, a determining effect on environment/"economics in the wide sense".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:27:30 AM EST
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Feedback loops...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:38:21 AM EST
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roles fall into place were a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...

Cue in Lord of the Flies.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the first thing that came to my mind too. But well, that's just one vision, an imaginary experiment, of how humans would behave, or worse, how young teenagers would isolated from their environment. (and how much of their environment would they bring to the island to start with?)

But on a very pessimistic days, I'd say LotF wouldn't be that far from the truth...

by Nomad on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:07:09 AM EST
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Just as imaginary as Hobbes', or Locke's, or Rousseau's, or Hume's state of nature

And as fictional as reality TV.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:09:03 AM EST
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well it's funny how much more the children smile more and the old (the ones who make it) age with more dignity in the third world.

must be the poverty...

i remember hearing that in europe in the middle ages, once a year the whole village would meet by night and bonk their hearts out in the dark with whomever.

mixing up the old gene pool...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:49:51 AM EST
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You think people in the third world don't have culture?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:53 AM EST
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course they do, one that took millennia to knit, unlike our shiny new throwaway one...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:30:56 AM EST
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Western™ culture didn't take millennia to kit?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:35:43 AM EST
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colman and migeru in telepathic harmony...

i'm looking at the unravelled skeins around our feet.

on the bright side, i see a new global culture forming too, woven from the many threads that survive commodification.

pop over to sven's musical diary for evidence of that...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:04:28 AM EST
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i just picked up on the nuance/spelling slip!

yup that's our main contribution.... better KIT

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:08:04 AM EST
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Ours took millennia to knit as well.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:37:05 AM EST
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yup, i know.

then we traded it in for the truman show.

'madmen' is the new 'sopranos'. i was happy to see that obama relaxes to it on the campaign plane.

anyone want to learn through drama how the truman show took over western media culture in the sixties could do worse than check it out.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:01:07 AM EST
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You're romanticising other cultures, which are generally also pretty crappy. 80% of everything is shit.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:22:10 AM EST
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Actually, remind me at what point "our" culture was so bloody great? 1800s? 1930s? 1950s?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:26:14 AM EST
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I thought the consensus was no later than 8000 BC?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM EST
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well, our culture produced artifacts that still command global respect.

lately not so much.

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:39:55 AM EST
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Whereas other cultures have been churning out global-respect-commanding artifacts at an alarming rate, lately.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:44:11 AM EST
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ok, ok, i really set myself up for that one!

i guess the chinese olympics...

<dux>

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:48:00 AM EST
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You mean the Chinese do Western™ culture better than The West™?

Not that that would be too surprising...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:50:31 AM EST
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actually we still produce music and movies that command respect...

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:43:52 AM EST
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Do you have a source for that statistic?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:26:57 AM EST
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Sure, though I'm being a bit conservative.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:28:49 AM EST
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yes it's true, maybe 90+%!

the virtue of other cultures is they're not ours, which of course can lead to romanticisation, of which i have been guilty, but no more, no more...

not since i found ET, lol!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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