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Exactly, it would be an impossible thing to try to define yet the word 'natural' is used so often with the meaning implicitly assumed and yet never discussed.

The closest I could try to articulate would be how would male and female roles fall into place were a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...  My first thought there is that it would largely be determined by the environment they were living in and thus would vary.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:49:39 AM EST
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a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...

And none carried over from whatever communities these people come from...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:53:02 AM EST
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Perhaps like Celebrity Love Island.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:54:28 AM EST
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You mean Celebrity Love Island participants carry over no culture from their societies of origin?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:56 AM EST
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They are 'celebrities'.  I didn't think they lived in the real world anyway.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:03:17 AM EST
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Okay, so from the Celebrity subculture which they share (and the rest of us are force-fed through the daily media we consume).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:41:10 AM EST
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Contain large sets of human rules (like 'winning')
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:58:38 AM EST
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Even without that, participants are not lobotomised, and they share a language and a broader cultural background.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:00:16 AM EST
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Environment - economics in the wide sense really - constrains culture in the long run but it doesn't determine it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:56:14 AM EST
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Whereas culture may well be said to exercise, to some extent, a determining effect on environment/"economics in the wide sense".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:27:30 AM EST
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Feedback loops...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:38:21 AM EST
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roles fall into place were a small community/tribe to find themselves living together - no 'cultural' structures or rituals or roles currently established...

Cue in Lord of the Flies.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:01:41 AM EST
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That's the first thing that came to my mind too. But well, that's just one vision, an imaginary experiment, of how humans would behave, or worse, how young teenagers would isolated from their environment. (and how much of their environment would they bring to the island to start with?)

But on a very pessimistic days, I'd say LotF wouldn't be that far from the truth...

by Nomad on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:07:09 AM EST
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Just as imaginary as Hobbes', or Locke's, or Rousseau's, or Hume's state of nature

And as fictional as reality TV.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:09:03 AM EST
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