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I think it all boils down to whose ox gets gored. I fail to understand why the existing institutions cannot be allowed to fail if What is not needed for capitalization of new institutions could be used to mitigate collateral damage from the defaults of existing institutions.  If derivitives blow up, let them take out those who were involved.  Perhaps this only makes sense to me because I an not trained in economics.  But then it is the economics that has been used that has created this situation.

I am always happy to be instructed in these dark arts.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 09:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently the end of a sentence was deleted. Should have read: "if a substantial portion of the proposed $700 Billion MOAB is instead used to provide equity capital to a series of new banks that are required to be run along 1970s lines."

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 11:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason existing institutions cannot be allowed to fail is that default has knock-on effects on potentially every single other institution in the system. Nationalisation is the answer. Once you own the existing banks you can simply replace the management and run them "along 1970s lines" if that would fix the problem.

Imagine the following scenario: the Dodd plan is adopted, Paulson and Bernanke overpay for the assets and early in Obama's administration they sell the assets at a loss and take over the banks (all the existing equity gets wiped out and Tresury owns 100% of the assets).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not deny the problem of the knock on effect.  However, given the size of the markets, $10 Trillion for residential real estate loans, and the degree of leverage to which many of these financial instruments have been subjected, 30 to 1 has often been cited, how can we even start to get an idea of the extent of the cost of an effective intervention without letting the markets clear?

The US Government has already taken charge of Freddie and Fanny.  The portion of performing loans in their portfolios is not yet public knowledge.  The location of the bottom for real estate prices is not known yet.  It is possible that prices in some of the largest markets have another 20% drop ahead.  It is not inconceivable that they could be $1 to $2 Trillion underwater by the time the bottom is reached.  Who knows the extent of liability due to leverage on CDOs and MBSs which they own or which they have already guaranteed?  May they be small to non-existent!

AIG could be in the same range of damage potential due to a larger portion of their obligations being leveraged.  Even $40 Billion leveraged at 30 to 1 gives $1.2 Trillion.  Then there are all of the banks lined up at the FDIC's door.  Even if they end up only 10% under water on the typical 60% of their assets which are mortgages,  could that total another $1 Trillion?

It seems to me to be far more responsible to insure that any more expenditures go towards efforts where the size and extent of the damage is well defined.  That should start with a cold eye on the books of the Fed.  If indeed, as Jerome's correspondent suggests, most of the demanded $700 Billion goes just to re-capitalizing the Fed, then that is just pissing into a hurricane unless the Fed is ordered to cease and desist in its policies of buying toxic trash for good money, as Market trustee suggested?  How can we know the adequacy of the proposed solution if we don't know the size of the problem?

I can see that it is possible that the mortgage problem can be worked out over time.  I do not see how leveraged financial instruments can be saved unless they miraculously save them selves by all netting out to zero.  I fear they might be several Trillion dollars off.  And that is in today's dollars.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is not needed for capitalization of new institutions could be used to mitigate collateral damage from the defaults of existing institutions.

"Mitigate collateral damage from defaults" = "recapitalization"

A distinction without a difference?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 04:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps the collateral damage he means is not in the financial world but among homeowners?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, a default of an institution doesn't directly affect the homeowners who are debtors, not creditors, of the defaulting institutions.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking that banks default because the price of derivatives is crashing after debtors default because of the crazy price structuring of their mortgages. The connection to bank defaults is indirect not direct, unlike for the banks' creditors, but I read this into "collateral damage".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:10:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was referring to what ever would emerge as an important but salvageable part of the financial system as the dust clears.  It seems that the time for financial triage has arrived.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Triage requires full disclosure.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point exactly.  We are assuming massive obligations without knowing whether they are salvageable.  How do we help by giving ourselves a dynamite enema and lighting the fuse?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:29:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin makes similar points below.  The chief virtue of my recommendation is to create new credit for ongoing business and for credit worthy borrowers.  I don't know how much available credit is needed for the economy to work adequately.  But credit freeze has been cited by Bernanke as the reason we must come up with the $700 Billion.  I can see that it is a real problem.  I would rather see that amount of money spent on something real and obviously helpful than on unwinding 30 to 1 bets.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:25:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... credit ratings that has allowed senior tranches of a pile of chickenshit to be treated like a basket of eggs.

That is, because stuff was given investment grade ratings that should never in a million years have been given investment grade rating, all sorts of institutions that are only allowed to hold investment grade securities are on the hook if the house of cards is just allowed to collapse and then pick up the pieces later.

That includes pension funds, car insurance, fire insurance, annuities ... the Main Street finance sector, still operating, obscured by all the financial fireworks.

Example, five pools of mortgages each are supporting a family of five assets each. In each family, the senior member has first claim on the income, until it meets its face value income stream, then the next eldest, then the middle, then the second youngest, and the youngest is last in line.

Because the youngest is first in line for any shortfall, it sells at the steepest discount, and yields a high return up front. But it is not rated as investment grade.

Now collect the youngest members of all five families and send them off to school, with their allowances in tow. They pool the allowances, and set up a pretend family in their classroom, with the senior desk having first claim on a share of the pool, then the next senior desk, then the middle desk, then the fourth desk, then the last desk.

For random events ... "a tree fell on our house, we have to fix the roof, I can't bring in any allowance this week", the senior desk is well shielded by its position at the top of the ladder, "upgrading" it in terms of sheltering it from random risks. But if something hits all five families equally, then there may be no allowance at all.

No matter how you follow rules set down to create "security class" assets as the senior claim on a pool of income, if its a senior claim out of a pile of assets overexposed to systemic risks, you are concentrating exposure to systemic risk. And concentrated exposure to systemic risk is not supposed to be what institutions are supposed to be holding if they are limited to holding investment grade assets.

So a lot of those AAA ratings were big fat lies in terms of the regulatory intent of the restriction. But quite often very stylish lies told following all proper forms and so quite possible legally permissable lies ... "this is the kind of things we are allowed to rate as AAA, under established practice (even though you would be silly to treat this AAA as being really truly equivalent to that AAA)."

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 03:05:12 AM EST
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