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Won't help a lot. The bad mortgages will go bust rather soon. A rapid house price increase in the longer term would help only, when the banks would go for a Chris Cook style solution, where they essentially foreclose the homes, but don't sell them, but instead rent them out. Private banks are most likely not going to do that. If the gov't takes over the mortgages, it might do something like that.

But I doubt there will be a lot of house price inflation. The recent high (CPI) inflation numbers were mostly due to increases in the price of tradable goods. A dollar decline creates inflation in the tradable goods sector, but unless Asians and Europeans start to buy houses in the USA, this won't help the house prices to increase.
Only a wage price spiral could do that. Not in sight. The last quarters US GDP deflator was ~0.8%
Japan has not had a cumulative GDP deflator of 25% in the last 20 years. In a medium bad case scenario, the US would develop Japan-like. Probably still better than a great depression.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 10:31:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A rapid house price increase in the longer term would help only, when the banks would go for a Chris Cook style solution, where they essentially foreclose the homes, but don't sell them, but instead rent them out. Private banks are most likely not going to do that. If the gov't takes over the mortgages, it might do something like that.

Buying the mortgages is effectively what the bailout plans want to authorise, and the Dodd version contains some specific provisions about preventing foreclosure on mortgages that the tresury buys, as well as giving the Tresury the contingent equity.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 10:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If a reinflating of the house prices in the not-short term (in which I doubt, as I wrote) shall make banks whole, they need an equity stake in the houses.

While the Dodd plan may help to prevent forclosures, which may be helpful for the banks, especially those which don't know who their debtors really are and therefore can't make a deal with them, I'm pretty sure, it don't foresee an equity stake in the houses.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 11:47:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If a reinflating of the house prices in the not-short term (in which I doubt, as I wrote) shall make banks whole, they need an equity stake in the houses.

No, the treasury buys the mortgages at par and then the banks hope that the house prices reinflate so that the Treasury doesn't have to exercise its option.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 04:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is what happens in the next few months. People will miss payments or make partial payments. This constitutes usually an event of default.
So what is the gov't going to do? Just ignore the missing payments? This payments after all are part of the value of the asset.
Wasn't it that the democrats wanted in such cases, that the principal is renegotiated at a court? In that case the loan would be simply cut. If later the house increases in value, why would the principal increase again?
An alternative would be, to just pack the missed payments as additional debt on the mortgage, which in the short term makes the homeowner even more under water, which is probably not, what the democrats have in mind, when they speak about relief for the overdebted.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 06:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, mortgage defaults lead to losses for the Treasury and therefore some of the contingent equity is realised. Krugman has quoted an estimate that maybe $800bn will be lost on subprime because of the housing slump and that under $500bn of losses has been recognised so far. So nationalisation seems like the eventual, inevitable outcome.

But under the Dodd plans the equity is realised over months or years, and Obama can be blamed for nationalising the banks :-)

Under the Paulson plan, the Tresury simply loses money.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 06:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But under the Dodd plans the equity is realised over months or years, and Obama can be blamed for nationalising the banks :-)

So if the economy doesn't run well the next 4 years, because of the mess that is, it will be blamed on Obama's socialism.
Maybe the Dodd plan isn't that bad, as there is a scapegoat to prevent anti-capitalistic spin. I only hope Obama is really elected and the mess doesn't fall McCain on the feet ;-)
Maybe I should change my signiture, but I think by now it are anyhow only the masochists left favouring McCain.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 06:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Won't help a lot. The bad mortgages will go bust rather soon. A rapid house price increase in the longer term would help only, when the banks would go for a Chris Cook style solution, where they essentially foreclose the homes, but don't sell them, but instead rent them out.

Not quite.

My solution is in fact a transfer of title by the Banks to a quasi REIT and then for the banks to sell off their Units in the affordable rental streams flowing through these REIT's.

The outcome of this "asset-based" solution is far more advantageous to the banks than any conventional "deficit-based"solution involving new credit.

In this model,the properties themselves will never be sold again, remaining in "custody".

However, the "Co-owner" Occupiers may change, and the "Co-owner" Investors may change, particularly as Occupiers may gradually become Investors as well, simply by buying Units.......

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 10:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This would essentially institutionalize an inherent "rent to buy" option for all of these properties.  US citizens are familiar with that term.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent point.

The key is always to use language which is understood, and not only do I tend to write "financespeak" but it's UK "financespeak".

The proposal also has elements of what I have heard called an "evergreen lease" (not a UK expression).

Sort of an "evergreen lease to buy"

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad I finally understood some of what you have been saying.  Why don't you ask Mig to include a UK to US financespeak translation feature in his pending glossary? :-)

However, I think that a few "worked examples" set forth in common language would help, also.  My biggest problem has been understanding how your system would work in practice.  We have been taught to believe in "marketplace competition."  Why should that competition not extend to the very nature of ownership in society?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have been taught to believe in "marketplace competition."  Why should that competition not extend to the very nature of ownership in society?

Why shouldn't we unlearn what we've been taught?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why shouldn't we unlearn what we've been taught?
A lot of effort has gone into writing this stuff into everyone's brain over the last 30 years.  I agree that it would be best to write a better message, especially for the younger generations.  For anyone over 30 it may be far more effective to modify the meaning and redirect the results of the existing hard wired brain structures. IMHO.
 

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm all in favour of "competition" because I believe that the model I am outlining will actually "outcompete" the conventional one.

The reason is that there are no returns going to unnecessary "rentiers". This is what the Cooperative movement calls the "Cooperative Advantage".

The competition that I foresee is not for pieces of paper representing IOU's/claims over wealth made by intermediaries, but competition for "Quality" instead.

There is no Profit and no Loss within a partnership framework, merely creation and exchange of "Value" in all its forms (and "Money as Debt" is not one of them).

Such a "cooperative of cooperatives"  partnership model would IMHO be what Yunus calls "Not for loss".

Here's an example.

A portfolio of 5,000 25 year mortgage loans @ 6% pa average $200,000 to a total value of $1 billion. Each borrower must currently repay $1303.77 per month or $15,645.24 pa for the life of the loan.

A rental is set at an "affordable" level - (say) an average "affordable" rental of $500 per month or $6,000 pa and this rental is then Index - linked. This gives a total Rental Pool of $30m in the first year, rising with inflation.

This Pool is "Unitised" into (say) a million "Units" or "millionths". Each Unit consists of one millionth of the economic interest / "ownership" of the pool of properties and carries an income of $30.00 in the first year, rising with inflation thereafter.

It is now simply a question of the market price of these Units: at $1,000 per Unit the initial return is 3%. The proceeds of a sale at this price would be $1bn, and this would pay off the debt at 100 cents on the dollar.

At $750 per Unit the initial return would be 4% and the proceeds $750m or 75% of the nominal value of the debt.

And so on.

The key point is that the higher the level at which the initial "Capital Rental" return is set, the less likely it is that it will be paid in its entirety, and therefore the less "certain" it is, and the more risky it is.

Risk does not lead to Reward: Reward leads to Risk.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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