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It appears to me that even the Dodd plan is a bad idea. Going beyond Martin's arguments, isn't the toxic stuff a basic problem? That is, on one hand, should all these derivatives the government buys from the banks be terminated, rather than re-sold? On the other han, shouldn't banks be kept from creating new toxic assets? I mean, the banks could induce Treasury to sell the first ShitpileTM at a loss by boosting their balance sheets with the new stuff:

2009 (illusory successful end of Dodd Plan):
AssetsLiabilities
Good Assets450Debt475
Cash50Contingent claim25
ShitpileTM 2.025Equity25

2010 (height of next bubble):

AssetsLiabilities
Good Assets500Debt525
ShitpileTM 2.050Equity25

2011 (next crash starts):

AssetsLiabilities
Good Assets475Debt500
ShitpileTM 2.025Equity0

Also, in a crisis of confidence, would the price of Good Assets fall, too?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:30:59 AM EST
If you write the glossary, there is just one term I am really confused about (despite having read dictionary and Wiki entries several times in the past): equity. There seem to be multiple meanings, even in your diary.

Others may be "warrant" (I see it should be equivalent with "contingent claim" in this case, which you sufficiently explain; but don't know what to associate at in general, knowing only "arrest warrant") and "short-selling".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is a right to purchase equity at a pre-agreed price and a pre-agreed time (or subject to pre-agreed conditions).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 09:33:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, equity remains.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm with DoDo there. I thought the company was (or at least could be) insolvent when debts got greater than assets. If the shitpile is sold for equity, and in that case I will actually suppose it's sold for shares in the company, I thought that precisely that made it more solvent.
Like, ending with 450 of good assets and 50 in cash, against 475 in debts, with shares diluted by a 200% increase in capital.

I fail to see how that would make the bank more insolvent.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 04:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What if everyone goes bankrupt by domino effect? Then you'll have to create a public credit facility to keep the economy going.

What, then, is the downside to taking over the existing banks? (case when the contingent claims are exercised by reselling Shitpile™ at a loss)

And if the rescue of the banks allows them to be profitable again and the tresury can resell the Shitpile™ at a profit, then it will have been proven that the problem was one of liquidity (if you believe the problem is one of solvency then you will end up in the previous case).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:02:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I follow.

You are going with the assumption that Treasury would take over those banks, eventually. But I assume banks don't really want to be taken over, and that based on past performance and lack of changed rules, they can avert it: they can become profitable again on paper with another bubble to the extent of weathering even if Treasure re-sells ShitpileTM 1.0 without a profit. And then an even bigger cycle starts.

So, is "liquidity" the key to an indefinite extension of this pyramid game, or do you mean something else?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because nobody wants to buy Shitpile™, Shitpile™ asset prices have gone through the floor. Since the assets are required to be marked-to-market on the balance sheet, the fact that the market for them has frozen and the price has collapsed collapses the assets side of the banks' balance sheets. In the good old days, losses were not recognised unless they were realised, that is, an asset would be on the balance sheet at its original purchase price and the loss would be realised at the time of selling it. Liquidity had no impact on the balance sheet. Most of the Shitpile™ is still cash-flowing, it's just that the rights to that cash flow cannot be sold. The implied default risk given the prices is so astronomical as to be preposterous, but would you buy some Shitpile™ at what is currently likely a huge discount?

The only way to buy Shitpile™ is on cash, a leveraged purchase is too risky on the downside and leveraged purchases are more vulnerable the longer you intend to hold the assets. So if you're Warren Buffet and you're swimming in cash, or you're Bernanke/Paulson and can manufacture cash, you can buy Shitpile™ and hold it to maturity.

Now, the policy question is, can you unlock the liquidity and then set a monetary and fiscal policy that doesn't allow a repeat of the bubble?

The alternative view is that the "preposterously" high default and low recovery rates implied by the Shitpile™ prices are actually "accurate", and then you have a solvency problem.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:31:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See also these discussions.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're supposing that the shitpile is still generating cash-flows. This is increasingly untrue and will get worse.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 09:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Primary market mortgages originated, then securitized as if asset, are no longer generating sufficient income to pay huge classes of (CMO) investors --PLUS-- corporate bonds which may or may not be dependent on the same unearned income to pay interest and retire debt (averting default) and capital gain from securities available for sale (MTM assets) on the balance sheet.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 02:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
can you unlock the liquidity and then set a monetary and fiscal policy that doesn't allow a repeat of the bubble?

My argument was that the two go hand in hand: to prevent the repeat of the bubble, or a new bubble based on other exotic financial instruments that weren't subject to the loss of confidence (hence ShitpileTM 2.0), these markets have to be closed, from which it follows that the ShitpileTM bought by Treasury should not be up for re-sale even in theory. I'm not sure even holding to maturity is compatible with that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What if everyone goes bankrupt by domino effect?

The domino is a linear cascade. The sandpile model is much better because sites toppling can cause their neighbours in every direction (usually 4) to topple as well.

When I adapt the sandpile model to finance I'm going to call it the Shitpile model.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 05:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
sigh, so scatological...first we are blessed  with golden showers of trickle down theory for decades, then we find our candy mountain reduced to human ordure.

freud must be giggling in his grave.

time to pull our collective finger out and evolve to a jungian era...

 

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 06:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also the methapor of a house of cards.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:05:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a good one for a pyramid scheme. But the shitpile model can be run on a spherical graph.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 08:07:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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