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So why not have the U.S. government invest that $700 billion dollars directly to those businesses and not through private banks? Why should the government take on the bad paper so the banks can roll the dice again?

And most electric companies are guaranteed a profit because they are a state-sanctioned monopoly.

by Magnifico on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 07:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well if you look back, there were about  1 1/4 million houses in the US last year at some stage of the foreclosure process, an investment of somewhere south of 10 billion, maybe as low as 1 billion at an earlier stage of the process, could have helped the homeowners keep their heads above water and stopped the foreclosures, which would have prevented a lot of the paper turning toxic, and prevented much of the sorry mess.

but then that would never have worked, as it's a form of socialism.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 07:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1 billion - that's less than $1000 per house in foreclosure at that stage, before administrative costs. Ten times that wouldn't have done much either. In any case the damn prices were completely unsustainable, they had to fall, and fall a lot.

Something close to that was Barney Frank's proposal to allow people to reduce their mortages to 85% of the current market value, The government pays the banks that 85%, the banks write off the rest, and the first x of any eventual gain on a later sale of the home goes to the government. Given foreclosure and resale costs, the banks effectively get more than what they'd get by foreclosing. The homeowners don't lose their home, and in the long term the government shouldn't lose that much money since it's holding mortgages at, on average about two thirds of the nominal peak price, with the right to capture much of the eventual upside. But the upfront costs would have been much more than ten billion. A very watered down version of this plan eventually passed, but it was done in a way that very few would qualify for paticipation.

by MarekNYC on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 07:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well it's between 1 month and 10 months hoam loan payments, enough to get peoples heads back above water for a few months, Time to do something for themselves. if it had been put in last year before everything went really wrong, you dont have to pay off the full ammount if you act quick enough, just give the individuals aspace to help themselves. OK a lot won't be in a position to, but  it's better than the mess thats about now.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 07:53:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Say I have a house with a 30 year $200,000 mortgage which has just been reset from 5.0% to 7.5%.

My payments go from $1084.19 to $1411.18 per month.

Let's foreclose on the house, put it into the hands of a "Custodian" and charge a reasonable "Capital Rental" to the "Occupier-formerly-known-as-Owner", and then index-link the rental.

At an initial "Capital Rental" of 4% the finance cost is $667 per month: at 3% $500.00 and so on.

Anything the Occupier pays in excess of the "Capital rental" due buys him Units, and if he wishes, he can always pay the Rental with Units if he doesn't want to, or can't, pay in cash.

The outcome is Units of a "quasi REIT" asset class which the owner of the distressed debt can sell off to long term investors.

The lower the Capital Rental is, the more affordable it is, and the more likely it will be paid.

I reckon a 2 to 3% (index-linked) return could be quite achievable for Units in a "Pool" of over a million homes....

Safe as Houses.....

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 09:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The subprime folks generally couldn't afford the house, period, unless you permanently reduce their payments. To make matters worse, most of the loans in trouble, subprime, alt-A, or prime are adjustable. In the latter two often option ARM's. That means ballooning payments. Folks often stretched themselves thin just to make the initial teaser rates.  Unless you foresee a sudden rise in incomes then all we're doing is paying money to the banks without doing anything about the underlying problem.
by MarekNYC on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 at 11:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the problem is bad loans were made which means money was created (by the magic of fractional reserve banking) which shouldn't have. Now that money is going out of existence, making a number of companies and people bankrupt. You can allow those bankruptcies to take place and the money to disappear, or you can make good on those commitments by creating cash to back them up.

The second possibility leads to inflation, but it saves the institutions and allows the system to continue to function.

The first possibility would have knock-on effects as one company's bankruptcy immediately impairs assets on everyone else's balance sheet. You could conceivably end up with everyone filing for bankruptcy protection. That would also be a solution: if A owes money to B who owes money to C who owes money to A it can all be netted out to zero but the required disclosures will only take place if A, B, and C are all in bankruptcy court. But it everyone is bankrupt there will be no credit creation and, again, the economy will grind to a halt.

Another way to get the required "circular claims" disclosures to be made is for the government to pull a Roosevelt:

On March 5, 1933, the day after Roosevelt's inauguration, he called a special session of Congress which instituted a mandatory four-day bank holiday. This act provided for the reopening of banks after federal inspectors had declared them to be financially secure.
Just tell people that unless they all sit at a table with the Treasury Secretary and net out their outstanding bad claims, nobody will be allowed to continue in business.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 04:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Few "structured" securities and almost all the banks had capital (securities available for sale) tied up in railroad or utilities firms. Both of those operated under monopoly conditions, hiding ponzi earnings reporting schemes.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 01:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's forget about the market rhetoric as it is just that, rhetoric.

The credit institutions have a wealth of information about the financial system (and those mortgages). You want to at least save the institutional memory in those banks.

This can be achieved by letting them all go bankrupt and then buying up the pieces. But the government would have to have a "public holding company" or something like that to be able to own companies. This is not the case.

Except that the Dodd plan creates that authority, while keeping within the market narrative and thus being palatable.

One more point: this bailout plan has been designed for the Financials, but other corporations will want in on it. When the SEC decided to ban short selling of Financial stocks, some industrial companies successfully lobbied to be included in the short ban. Who is to say that General Motors won't ask the Treasury to buy some Shitpile™ from it?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 02:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The key word is palatable, Dodd is there to create a paltable program... ebcause somehow natioanlziation is not cosnidered palatable.

I ahve the feeling that nationalization would have a slightly higher chance to succeed... but a Dood program with a robert Reich approach investment during the transition has similar or higher.

IN any case, I am not still completely sure it woudl work..

So, Is Euroep , China and Japan ready for derivative meltdown? and for a huge contraction in US demand?

These are the two questions we should be worried here.
I know about Spain.. no big deal about the ocntraction demand, but given that we are in the same bubble process than the US, a credit default will eb really bad for Spain..

the US falls, Spain goes with it.. at least we make some kind of deal with the Chinese and convince them that we are in better shape than the US and can send ther saving around here :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 10:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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