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as the bailout calls for yet another transfer from poor to rich

I was watching an interview with a Columbia Business School professor, whose name I did not catch, who challenged this point.

According to him, the bail-out will be paid for by federal taxes (as opposed to state/local taxes and social security taxes), on corporations and individuals.

Although I cannot remember the exact figures he gave, he claimed the vast bulk of these federal taxes would be paid by people making $150,000 or more per year.

Looking this up, I could only find the following figures for 2006 from the "Tax Foundation" (in turn based on IRS figures) for "Federal Individual Income Tax Data, 2006":

  • 70.79% of all federal individual income tax was paid by people making $108,904 or more (i.e. the top 10%)

  • 86.27% was paid by people making $64,702 or more (i.e. the top 25%)

So even if we make "under $65,000" our threshold for "poor", those people would collectively contribute only about 15% of federal individual income taxes.

Figuring in corporate taxes, the relative tax contributions of the those making under $65K will be even smaller.

Thus, I am not sure if it is accurate that this will be a "transfer from poor to rich".

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 at 11:25:52 AM EST
I'm pretty sure, he is right.
What the bailout however will do, is transfering wealth between different branches of the economy.
From the reality based economy to the accounting economy.
From the economy of future growth to the economy of past growth.
From the creating economy to the redistributing economy.
From those rich people, who have 'earned' their money to those rich people, who have 'made' their money.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 at 12:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I greatly doubt that the story is so simple.
Federal taxes mmm... Does the bailout come with a dedicated new tax?

I thought it didn't. So it's simply increasing the debt, which will either mean new taxes, and it's just our guess as to who they will hit, or reduced programs. Either cancellation or transfer to local organisations. Which will have the choice of either raising local taxes or reducing benefits.

There are several ways of 'paying'.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 at 12:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But these are income taxes, whether paid by individuals or corporations.  It makes a big difference whether one makes $65,000/yr and owns a house with substantial equity, flush IRAs and primo benefit packages or is just making $65,000 for the first time in one's life, is self employed, pays the full 14.5% SSI & FICA, etc. and pays for one's family's health insurance out of pocket and as an individual enrollee. (Kaiser HMO is well over $1,000/month for a couple, depending on age; and you will pay more taxes than couples with a house and mortgage and half again the income.)

The point is wealth matters and benefits matter.  The self employed renter would have to make over $90,000/yr to be as well off as the $65,000/year employee with good benefits, but the statistics don't take that into account.  The point is that those with $109,000/yr  had  probably 90 to 95% of disposable income before real estate started to dive.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 at 03:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of course the rich pay more of the income taxes than the poor. But spending $700 billion of taxpayer money means:

  • less money for other government spending (which disproportionately favors the poor);
  • either taxes are increased (on whom to be determined), or debt will be increased, which means, all things being equal, higher interest rates. With the rich being net creditors and the poor net debtors, this favors the rich;
  • more generally, given that most taxes (not just income tax) are not that progressive, more taxes mean nothing good for the poor;
  • and, of course, given where hte money goes, the transfer is undoubtedly to the rich; almost irrespective of the source of the funds, this is NOT progressive.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 at 03:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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