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What bugs me is this haggling over -0-20% while -50% is more like what is needed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 at 04:45:07 AM EST
amen, dodo!

50% would begin to acknowledge the seriousness of the problem, anything less is either paralysis or denial, or both...

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 at 05:21:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... not doing enough is of course denial of the severity of the challenge on the part of those who oppose doing that much.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BruceMcF:
Not doing anything is paralysis ... (none / 1) ... not doing enough is of course denial of the severity of the challenge on the part of those who oppose doing that much.

that statement has all the lucid limpidity, the satisfyingly intellectual chewiness, and the surgical concision of an epochal aphorism.

keep spitting them out bruce!

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 09:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU has the idea that developed countries should take an on average 30% reduction in order to remain below 550 ppm of carbon dioxide equivalents, which again is needed to remain below 2 degrees of warming.

Now, some researchers today say that we rather need to stabilise at around 450 ppm (see also 350.org which is only about carbon dioxide itself). That is not the IPCC consensus, but a lot of scientists are convinced of it.

If we talk about that, then 50% by 2020 would be more in order.

I have mixed feelings about these targets. On the one hand you see that it's not optimal to set them because they induce some kind of inertia. On the other hand, you might want inertia because a more flexible, step-based system could easily be exploited.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 at 07:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... then get on track for that target, that is not inertia.

Moving the Overton Window requires two groups ... those standing outside the window pulling it in that direction, and those standing inside the wind pushing it in that direction.

And a crucial element is, of course, Shock Doctrine. If there is a shock that opens the possibility for a substantial institutional reform, it will tend to come from those options that are already seen as being on the table - so given that we know that the current level of targets under "serious" consideration guarantees a sequence of very hard shocks, getting an option as being seen as on the table even if an option is not seen as being a "serious possibility" is well worth doing.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BruceMcF:
And a crucial element is, of course, Shock Doctrine.

supplied, as instrument of last resort, by Mother Nature...

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 09:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Because of the way carbon dioxide persists in the atmosphere and in the oceans, and the way the atmosphere and the oceans interact, patterns that are established at peak levels will produce problems like "inexorable sea level rise" and Dust-Bowl-like droughts for at least a thousand years, the researchers are reporting in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/science/earth/27carbon.html?ref=us
by asdf on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 at 08:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"People have imagined that if we stopped emitting carbon dioxide the climate would go back to normal in 100 years, 200 years; that's not true," climate researcher Susan Solomon said in a teleconference.

Solomon's report "is quite important, not alarmist, and very important for the current debates on climate policy," added Jonathan Overpeck, a climate researcher at the University of Arizona.

"This aspect is one that is poorly appreciated by policymakers and the general public and it is real," said Trenberth, who was not part of the research group.

"The temperature changes and the sea level changes are, if anything underestimated and quite conservative, especially for sea level," he said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hMRqVHPx5vcRCKXVKbFlnKZrVJOQD95V4HBG0

by asdf on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 at 09:16:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. We'll need a programme to get the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere again, eventually.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 at 05:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hopefully before the oceans do.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 06:24:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not set a 1% per year reduction target? 20% by 2020 or 50% by 2050 are just catchphrases.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 09:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd want an average of 1% reduction over a multi-year timeframe, due to fluctuations (say, cold winters). I don't know if these targets are just catchprhases, they have been turned into laws, in the EU at least, and Kyoto also worked with these targets.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 07:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're just catchphrases in that they don't preclude doing essentially nothing for years and then rushing at the end.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not how it works in emissions trading, though. The national allocation plans will need to be set in advance and will have a yearly decline in the cap. With regard to other targets, fair enough. Depends upon Commission oversight, and so on. My main issue is that it does not allow us to play into new developments.

It may be that we have a set of technological and macroeconomic conditions that naturally lead to a much greater reduction, and the bottom will fall out of the ETS market, again. Then the ETS will just have been a very expensive kind of insurance policy.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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