Display:
Mr. Ratzinger's ad personam attack does not appear all that rational either.

In a side show in Northeast Italy the local Lefebrvian, a certain Abrahamowicz, repeated today his slurs against the Holocaust by saying that the gas chambers were for disinfection. He also replied to Pope Ratzinger's call to the Lefebrvians to accept Vatican II and the various magistries of the recent popes. He remarked that Vatican II was a cesspool full of heresies.

Curiously, the Lega Nord and the rightwing governor of Veneto have invited Abrahamovicz to get lost in the crudest of terms.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 04:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he was very polite.

The idea, that it could matter for the issue of excommunication, that someone denies the holocaust is not even debatable. On which ground should that matter? Murderers aren't excommunicated and as well on state side even the most evil crimes aren't punished with the loss of citizenship (which is the equivalent to excommunication, while making wrong statements when applying for citizenship can mean the loss of citizenship). The pope has made clear statements with regard to the holocaust. The request to punish denying of the holocaust with the upholding of excommunication, is the equivalent of a request by the pope to throw the constitution away and let on of his bishops be dictator. I wonder which response this would have triggered.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 04:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Vatican Secretary of State did effectively make it one of the conditions of being readmitted into the fold, as I pointed out a couple days ago.

Pope Ratzinger's older brother may have been polite (we could not expect less) but his argument as reported does not argue the case (as you do) but simply generalizes on the personality of Merkel and anyone who holds similar views- such as most of the German Episcopacy. Perhaps you have seen the interview and can thus give us a fuller version.

We may note that an obscure priest is being given international coverage as if he were on par with Merkel and the German Episcopacy. For as much as opinions are to be respected, what weight does brotherhood amount to on the news market?

As for opinions of prelates, Benedict XVI was the Vatican Inquisitor throughout Wojtyla's papacy and quite often suspended prelates a divinis precisely for their opinions. His single-minded views on the Church of Liberation in South America were and are deplorable, all the more so with the assassination of Romero.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't read the interview with Benedikt's brother. But I have heard of Merkel's statement in the German news given within context (here in German) As I read it, the issue wasn't giving bishops post to Williamson - that indeed would be an issue a German chancellor could comment on, after all about half the people, that voted for Merkel in the last election are catholics - but the withdraw of the excommunication.

As far as I know, the Vatican has NOT given a bishop's post to Williamson, and even if he revokes his statement, I would see him as unfit. Maybe you know more about that as the Italian press has better coverage of the facts.
Perhaps it was planned to give Williamson a post as bishop - but again, I can't see that this was meant by Merkel -, but if the pope didn't know of Williamson's statements at that point, I still see the reaction of Merkel as unlucky.
I can only hope, but there is not much reason for hope, that the irrational behaviour of politicians with regard to the holocaust and related topics doesn't create anti-semitism. In the weissgarnix.de blog even atheists and people who declared, that they disliked the pope so far expressed lack of understanding for Merkel's statement.

With regard to the Church of Liberation and general the manner of the catholic church in South America, I'm for sure not happy. There are plenty of reasons to critisise the catholic church, but critics, that simply condemn everything for sure don't are the ones, that have any positive influence. And of course you can be excommunicated for opinions, e.g. for the opinion that you don't believe in God, I think even for saying, that you don't believe in physical resurrection, or for questioning the virginity of Maria. The Pius brothers were excommunicated, because they held the mess in Latin in an old rite - not because they hate homosexuals, women in trousers, or because the denial of the holocaust.
Unfortunately I was ill, when I has the chance to hear a talk about the Church of Liberation, so there my knowledge why what happened is very limited.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 07:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The argument that politicians should stay out of the Church's internal affairs would be a decent one if the Church did the same. Yet the Church routinely makes its views on state policies rather clear - e.g. gay marriage, abortion, etc. Note that the hypocrisy isn't due to the fact that they say that such things are sinful or wrong, but rather that they weigh in on laws and regulations.
by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no hypocracy. The constitution guarantees the freedom of religion, but religions are highly political similar to trade unions.
There are good reasons why this is the case. Hypocracy would be, if churches would have promised to act otherwise. They haven't, and it would be the end of any church to do that. There is not the slightest reason to do this.

How do they weigh in? On what grounds the churches power over to weigh in? I guess on the threat of their members not voting for the politicians, that do something that they don't like. There is nothing wrong with this.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately the reaction on holocaust denial of politicians makes them very incredible. An unbiased neutral observer will think that German politicians are forced to claim the existence of the holocaust by the Central council of Jews in Germany. If it is really a goal to reduce holocaust denial, Germany should:

A) Abolish the law, that says holocaust denial is illegal
B) Prepare a exhibition or something like that, where lots of evidence is for the holocaust is shown
C) Invite people like Achmadinejad and the like to Germany to see the exhibition
D) Refrain agreeing into abuse of the holocaust, such as
   - stop to support Israel unconditionless - Ok, the support is anyhow not so that huge, but still a bit more than sensible
   - stop to give the Central Council of Jews in Germany the quasi-state religion leader character it has to date. This is rather crass, when compared with similar Christian authorities
   - stop acting as if the holocaust was the only event in history ever, adjust the school learning plans appropriately as well as in general public live. Almost everybody is exremely annoyed by this. It seems the little rest becomes journalists.
 

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 08:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with this is that if it was done, media worldwide would paint it as if the law was being removed because the German nation wished to restart the holocaust.

I know it's not a rational or reasonable belief on the part of the rest of the world, but I'd say that it wont be seen as reasonable to remove the law till it is truely ancient history.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 08:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless they actually repeal the anti-racism laws as a whole (not a bad idea), they'd be rightly slammed for making this the one prominent exception.
by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this law has terrible consequences for Jews. For most Germans it is essentially irrelevant. The couple of Germans that get into conflict with this law are anyhow idiots. It would be an act of charity for peace in the world.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series