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I'll also grant you that given the precedent of Iraq and its WMD, it can well be the case that sought-after documents don't exist (be it because they were never prepared, or that they were destroyed long ago). However, I find the initial quoted outrage has little to do with evidence.

I can't search the Croatian online press for the original interview text or a sample of the reactions.

Here is Brammertz's interview with Vecernji list, and here is the defence lawier's reaction. Google Translate is your friend.

The interview is long, and most of it is in general terms (not specifically about Croatia). Here is the part on Gotovina (with my admittedly amateurish attempts to improve upon Google Translate):

Brammertz: Netko je skrio ključne dokaze protiv Gotovine Brammertz: Someone skrio% u010Dne key evidence against Gotovina
* Hrvati pamte bivšu tužiteljicu kao negativan lik koji je optužio i priveo pravdi Suda nacionalnog heroja Antu Gotovinu (prema jednom istraživanju provedenom kad je Gotovina uhićen, podupire ga 90 posto Hrvata). Što mislite, kako će Hrvati zapamtiti Vas? Možda kao osobu pod kojom je Tužiteljstvo osudilo Gotovinu? Ne može se reći da Tužiteljstvo svojim početnim potezima iznosi jake dokaze. Možete li, iz svoje perspektive, komentirati kako se odvija izvođenje dokaza Tužiteljstva u ovom, za hrvatsku javnost, osjetljivom predmetu?* Croats remember the former Prosecutor as a negative character who accused and brought before Court national hero Ante Gotovina (according to a poll conducted when Gotovina was arrested, 90 percent of Croats supported him). What do you think, how will Croats remember you? Perhaps as a person under whom the prosecution sentenced Gotovina? It can not be said that the prosecution has strong evidence. Can you, from your perspective, comment on how the presentation of the prosecution's evidence will happen in this, for the Croatian public, sensitive case?
- Ne mogu komentirati suđenje koje je u tijeku. Gospodin Gotovina je, kao i svaki drugi optuženi, nevin dok se ne dokaže suprotno. Što se tiče Tužiteljstva, izvodimo dokaze koji podupiru navedene optužbe. Događaji koji se odnose na predmet Gotovina, Čermak i Markač vrlo su važan dio nedavne hrvatske povijesti i nadam se da će presuda pomoći hrvatskoj javnosti da bolje razumije što se dogodilo 1995.
I can not comment on the trial, which is in progress. Mr. Gotovina is, like any accused, innocent until you prove the opposite. As for the prosecution, it will present evidence to support these charges. Events that relate to the subject of Gotovina, Cermak and Markac are a very important part of the recent Croatian history and I hope that the verdict will help the Croatian public to better understand what happened in 1995.
* Možete li komentirati problem "izgubljenih dokumenata" koje je Tužiteljstvo zatražilo od hrvatske vlade (u slučaju Gotovina)? Je li to ozbiljan problem (između Hrvatske i Međunarodnog suda) ili samo dio jedne pravne bitke u određenom predmetu? Kako Vi na to gledate?* Can you comment on the problem of "lost documents" that the prosecution requested from the Croatian government (in the case of Gotovina)? Is this a serious problem (between Croatia and the Tribunal), or only part of a legal battle in a particular case? How do you look at it?
- Te važne dokumente tražimo već više od 18 mjeseci. O tome sam razgovarao s hrvatskim vlastima na svim našim sastancima i morali smo zatražiti obvezujući nalog, koji je izdalo sudsko vijeće. Čini nam se malo vjerojatno da ključni dokumenti koji se odnose na jednu važnu vojnu operaciju mogu jednostavno nestati. Imamo razloga vjerovati da su neke osobe te dokumente namjerno sklonile ili sakrile. Zato još uvijek tražimo te ključne vojne dokumente, i to ostaje važno pitanje koje se nalazi u središtu naše suradnje s Hrvatskom. U ovom trenutku taj problem se nalazi i pred sucima, i, s obzirom na to da je predmet Gotovina u tijeku, nadamo se da će biti riješen što prije to bude moguće.
- We have been asking for these important documents for more than 18 months. I mentioned this to the Croatian authorities in all our meetings, and we had to request a binding order, which was issued by the judicial council. It seems to us unlikely that key documents that pertain to a major military operation might simply disappear. We have reason to believe that some people hid documents deliberately. That's why we are still asking for the key military documents, and it remains an important question that lies at the center of our cooperation with Croatia. At this time, this issue is also before the judges, and, considering that the Gotovina trial is in progress, we hope that it will be resolved as soon as possible.

That's it.

 Brammertz comes closest to suggest something wrong with Croatia in general when he speaks about helping the "Croatian public" to "better understand what happened in 1995" -- implying that the Gotovina-supporting 90% has the wrong idea of what happened. (My cynical self contends that a not insignificant part of that 90% did know very well what happened, but condoned it.) Indeed the lawyer's sputtering response was triggered by this passage only -- and there I find all that was referenced to you, with all the bombast and attempt to drum up patriotic support:

Mišetić: Neće nas Brammertz učiti o istini o Oluji i Gotovini Mišetić: Brammertz will not teach us about the truth of the Storm and Gotovina
Reakcija obrane generala Ante Gotovine na ekskluzivni intervju sa Sergeom Brammertzom u Večernjem listu bila je brza. Glavni haaški tužitelj ustvrdio je da netko skriva ključne dokaze protiv Gotovine, a Luku Mišetića, glavnog branitelja Gotovine, koji je u stanci suđenja otišao kući u SAD, jako je zasmetala Brammertzova izjava: "Događaji koji se odnose na predmet Gotovina, Čermak i Markač vrlo su važan dio nedavne hrvatske povijesti i nadam se da će presuda pomoći hrvatskoj javnosti da bolje razumije što se dogodilo 1995."The reaction of Gen. Ante Gotovina's Defense to the exclusive interview with Sergei Brammertz in Vecernji list was fast. The Hague chief prosecutor stated that someone is hiding key evidence against Gotovina, and Luka Misetic, the main defender of Gotovina, who gave his opinion from his home in United States, is very displeased with this statement of Brammertz: "The events that are related to the subject of Gotovina, Cermak and Markac are a very important part of the recent Croatian history and I hope that the verdict will help the Croatian public to better understand what happened in 1995."
Uvreda građanima
- Ovu izjavu smatram teškom uvredom hrvatskih građana, tko je Serge Brammertz da Hrvatima drži lekcije o tome što moraju znati i saznati što im se događalo u ratu?! Siguran sam da do prije dvije godine on nije mogao na karti zemaljskoj naći Knin, a nisam siguran da to može i danas - izjavljuje Luka Mišetić.
Insult to citizens
- I consider this statement a severe insult to Croatian citizens, who is Serge Brammertz to holds lessons for Croats on what to know and find out what had happened to them in the war? I am sure that up to two years ago he was unable to find Knin on a map, and I'm not sure that he can today - declares Luka Mišetić.
Smatra da Brammertz nije u stanju govoriti hrvatskim građanima o istini o ratu: "Svima onima koji prate suđenje jasno je da obrane drže predavanja tužiteljima o tome ratu, a ne obratno." Nada se da će, naprotiv "presuda otvoriti oči tužiteljima i nekim dijelovima međunarodne zajednice, i pokazati pravu sliku o našem ratu".He thinks that Brammertz has not been able to speak to Croatian citizens about the truth about the war: "To all those who follow the trial it is clear that the defense lectured prosecutors about the war, and not vice versa." He hopes that "the verdict will open the eyes of prosecutors and some parts of the international community, and show a true picture of our war."

Now his take on the evidence:

Što se tiče Brammertzova upornog ponavljanja da Hrvatska skriva od tužiteljstva ključne dokaze protiv Gotovine, Mišetić uzvraća kako je činjenica da tužiteljstvo ima jedan dio tzv. topničkih dnevnika, a za koje navodi da ih ne posjeduje: - Tužiteljstvo ima "sve ključne dokaze", to nije moj, nego stav prethodnice, Del Ponteove, koja je podignula optužnice generalima i tvrdila da ima "sve" dokaze o krivici. Moja bi poruka Brammertzu bila da se u dokazivanju koristi onim dokazima na temelju kojih je tužiteljstvo podignulo optužnice i ne bi trebalo biti nikakvih problema.Regarding Brammertz's persistent repeating that Croatia hides the key prosecution evidence against Gotovina, Mišetić points to the fact that the prosecution has one part of the so-called artillery diary that they say they do not possess: - prosecution has "all the key evidence," that's not my position but that of the predecessors, Del Ponte, who built the indictment against the generals and claimed to have "all" evidence of guilt. I would advise Brammertz to use the evidence prosecution put forward by the indictment and there should not be any problems.
Nemaju dokaze
No, radi se o tome da je obrana dokazala tužiteljstvu da im je teza potpuno kriva i sada oni love i navodno traže nove dokaze, jer su svjesni da nemaju dokaze protiv Gotovine, Tužiteljstvo se ponaša nefer, zaključuje Mišetić. Na Brammertza je u međuvremenu ljutita postala i službena Hrvatska, koja tvrdi da tužitelji imaju već polovicu od traženih dokumenata, a da je brojka od 150 dokumenata "proizvoljna". Dakle, izmišljena.
Do not have evidence
However, it is a fact that the defense proved prosecutorial bodies that their thesis is completely wrong and now they would like to look for supposed new evidence, because they are aware that they do not have evidence against Gotovina, prosecution has acted nefariously, says Mišetić. In the meantime official Croatia became angry at Brammertz, which claims that prosecutors have already half of the requested documents, and that the figure of 150 documents "arbitrary". So, fictional.

Something asked for for 18 months doesn't appear to be all that "new evidence".

Još ljetos, hrvatski veleposlanik u Haagu, Krnić pred sucima je pitao: pa na temelju čega su dignute optužnice protiv hrvatskih generala? Do proljeća tužiteljstvo završava, a nakon toga sa svojim svjedocima kreću obrane. Prvostupanjska presuda generalima trebala bi biti izrečena do kraja 2009.Even this year, Croatian Ambassador in The Hague, Krnic asked before the judges: so on the basis of which they boot up the indictment against Croatian generals? Until spring prosecution ends, and after that with its range of defense witnesses. The trial verdict against the generals should be received by the end of 2009.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 05:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear DoDo,

Gotovina's lawyer's reaction is completely justified.  The headline of Brammertz's interview is "SOMEONE HAS CONCEALED KEY EVIDENCE AGAINST GOTOVINA."  In the interview, Brammertz himself states in the interview:  "It seems to us unlikely that key documents that pertain to a major military operation might simply disappear. We have reason to believe that some people hid documents deliberately." One can completely understand the reaction of Gotovina's lawyer to this type of allegation by a prosecutor. It implies that the accused is guilty but that there is a cover-up preventing the prosecution from proving it.  Gotovina's lawyer was completely right to attack Brammertz for making this type of assertion.

Furthermore, Gotovina's lawyer's response was hardly "sputtering" or an attempt to "drum up patriotic support." It is an attempt to defend his client's public reputation.  Remember, it was Brammertz who first went public with the allegation that "someone is hiding evidence against Gotovina." The whole purpose of a trial is to either prove that the accused is a war criminal, or else to acquit the accused and give him his reputation back.  Brammertz wants to have it both ways:  he will try to convict him, but if he cannot convict him then he will try to make sure that he does not get his reputation back (i.e. he was guilty but the evidence of his guilt was concealed from us).  

There is a passage of Gotovina's lawyer's response which you failed to translate and which is completely on point:

Misetic states: "We have it on videotape. Carla Del Ponte in front of the Security Council giving a report three months before the start of trial in the Gotovina case, saying, 'We have all the evidence necessary to convict Gotovina.' So let me pose the question: What changed from the time when the Prosecution before trial was claiming that it had 'all the necessary evidence', to now during the trial Mr. Brammertz putting out stories about how 'critical evidence' against Gotovina is being withheld? The Prosecution is playing a game in order to prepare the foundation for Gotovina's eventual acquittal. When that time comes, they will say 'of course he was guilty, but you see we couldn't prove it because 'critical evidence' was withheld from us.' But with this story the Prosecution is desperately avoiding the fundamental question: what was the Prosecution's evidentiary basis for indicting him in the first place?"

by grabovcan (grabovcan@aol.com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:39:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe that, to put some light to all of this, people should see some details from trials to Gotovina. I am not sure if somebody can dig up the details of conversations (not only general reports) from the trials, I have dates and names of different moments of the trial...
by SteelLady on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brammertz has to prove that Gotovina aimed deliberately civil objects but they do not have the proof for this (If you see some moments of trial till now, you will understand that what they are trying to demonstrate really does not hold the water). So, among
the documents he does have are some artillery diaries, partially found lost on the ground by UN officers, some came from Croatian archives. He does not have any evidence that any more of them exist, he supposes that they must have existed because he needs it to prove his case. Croatian part says that that's all they have and that there is nothing more within their reach. The
accusation that not the whole time is covered they explain with negligence of soldiers who either lost some part (that is not impossible because some parts were already found by UN) or they were not written (that is also possible considering that they were even leaving them around). So, if they do not exist, the
Croatian government can not do anything and the thing can go forever. If they did exist, Croatian government would not do anything if Brammertz does not face them with the evidence that they existed or with clear indications who hid it. But the fact is that Brammertz does not have anything more but his imaginative proof he would like to have.
by SteelLady on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 07:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found english transcripts of the ICTY trial. There are a lot of interesting details but there is so much material that we can not analyse it here, maybe in the future I will put some more. One of the transcripts is here:

http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/trans/en/080408ED.htm

There is a tape introduced with the witness 6 of the prosecution that shows 'Knin bombarded all over'. The defensor asked for the original copy of the prosecution where, instead of the sirens and bombarding you can hear birds singing. And later he has shown that instead of the town bombarded in many places, the serbian colonel that provided the proof recorded the image putting himself in the center of the smoke of the Tvik factory (which was producing weapons) recording towards outside so it appeared that everything around is covered with smoke.

There were various proofs of this kind during the trial, the school that was hit because it was closed with army troops inside, one projectile beside the hospital, beside which lied the weapon the serbian side was shooting from. I believe all of these things can be found in different transcripts from the trial. So, if the prosecution does not find strong evidence in photographic material that would show that the civil points were deliberately aimed, the written affirmation from Gotovina's soldiers that they did it, would be a nice solution for the prosecutor. Besides, why would someone prefer artillery diaries to photographic evidence that is taken a lot during the war?

There are these kind of proofs that particular houses were being destroyed, not by artillery but by perticulars (war vultures going around those houses committing robbery, burning the houses or killing) but they can not prove that Gotovina had the control of them.

by SteelLady on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 09:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll also grant you that given the precedent of Iraq and its WMD, it can well be the case that sought-after documents don't exist (be it because they were never prepared, or that they were destroyed long ago).

That or, more to the point, the shameful spectacle of the Saddam trial.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 04:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something asked for for 18 months doesn't appear to be all that "new evidence".

In this case "new" means "in addition to that used in the indictment", clearly.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 05:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point of clarification. First, Brammertz hasn't been looking for this for "18 months,"  he's been looking for it for six months.  That is to say, he started asking for it IN THE MIDDLE OF TRIAL.  If it was such "important" evidence, why didn't he ask for it before trial?  Second, both the Tribunal Court and the Croatian government have ruled that there is no convincing proof that the "evidence"  Brammerts says was "hidden,"  ever exited in the first place.  Brammertz's arguments are circular.  He can't prove that what he's looking for ever existed, so he says it was "hidden."  And no one can prove that the evidence is not being "hidden,"  because there is no proof that it ever exited in the first place.  

Which leads to the question:  how does Brammertz know this evidence is "crucial against Gotovina,"  if no one has ever seen it and no one knows if it ever existed?

Brammertz is just creating excuses here.

by grabovcan (grabovcan@aol.com) on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 at 01:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Second, both the Tribunal Court and the Croatian government have ruled that there is no convincing proof that the "evidence"  Brammerts says was "hidden,"  ever exited in the first place.

This is not to imply that what you say isn't true, but do you have a link to document that ruling of the Tribunal?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 at 04:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, here is the link:

http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/tord/en/080916.pdf

The Trial Chamber issued an order to Croatia to intensify its search.  Within the Order, the Chamber noted at paragraph 13 that, "Based on the submissions of the Prosecution and Croatia, the Chamber is not in a position to draw any conclusion as to whether the requested documents do exist.  In particular, the Chamber considers that the aforementioned general statements of Croatia in the report dated 14 July 2008 are not sufficient, without further facts or documents to substantiate them, to establish that they do not exist."

Accordingly, there is no proof one way or the other whether such documents exist.  Croatia has not proven that the documents don't exist, but Brammertz hasn't convinced the Court that they do exist, either.  Accordingly, it is reckless of Brammertz (or else intentionally misleading) to suggest that people are "hiding incriminating evidence against Gotovina" when Brammertz cannnot even prove to the Court that the documents exist in the first place.

by grabovcan (grabovcan@aol.com) on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 at 04:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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