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This presupposes two things: That there was a large number of "commoners" who sold out of the housing market or traded down before the crash, and that the financial products created were sold mostly to wealthy investors (not for instance to pension funds looking for AAA rated investments). Both need to be supported by data.

On top of that you have the cost of the stimulus and rescue packages, which will be borne mostly by the people actually paying tax. (I.e. not wealthy investors.)

by Trond Ove on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 09:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The argument I'm making is that evidence has also not been presented to justify the claim that easy lending has been bad for the poor. The alternative claim that it has been good for the poor would also need supportive data, but this doesn't mean that the easy-lending-is-bad argument is true by default.

The recession is distinct from the bubble.  Obviously, losing jobs is bad, especially in absence of generous welfare policies.  However, the burdens of stimulus and bailout packages are almost certainly going to be carried more by the rich than anyone else.  (That's who has the the taxable wealth, after all.)

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The recession is distinct from the bubble.

In the same way and to the same extent that the flooding of New Orleans is distinct from the poor design and maintenance of the levees.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, in the same way that the flowing tide is distinct from the ebbing tide.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is distinct because the recession may not have been an inevitable outcome of the housing bubble, even if it was made more likely because of it. The relationship between some poor people gaining wealth due to the housing bubble and others losing it due to losing jobs later is a probabilistic relationship, not a deterministic one, so thinking about the two together would require discounting the cost of job loss due to the bubble by some amount.  The result could still very well indicate that, on average, the poor could be better off in the history that really occurred rather than an alternative history where they were restricted from owning their own homes.  

This means that the claim that easy lending has been bad for most people is the one that needs support of data before it should be accepted as true.

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
the recession may not have been an inevitable outcome of the housing bubble
I'm sorry, but every business cycle consists of a growth phase, a crisis phase, and a recession phase. The growth phase of a business cycle is associated with a credit bubble. The crisis phase is associated with cascading default. And the recession phase is the period of sluggish credit creation before a new credit bubble sets off.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not a description of business cycles that enjoys a lot of support.  Not saying it's not true, but it's a claim about business cycles on your part that accounts for credit in the economy in an unconventional way.  The conventional description of business cycles -- assuming such things even exist -- is that inventory of real goods build up due either changing tastes, technology, or public policies, and firms that produce things people no longer purchase have to close down. That credit has a causal relationship with this, and not just a symptomatic one, seems harder to support, at least with existing research.

The better argument for the deterministic case is that the present recession is NOT a business cycle at all, and neither was the Great Depression.  (There aren't excess inventories of unsold goods, for example.) Rather, the present is an extraordinary recession caused by collapses in the financial system. Very few recessions are associated with general collapses of the financial sector.  There does seem to be good reason to believe that financial system collapses have a high probability of resulting in economic decline.  However, there is a lower correlation between asset bubble collapse and financial system collapse.  So, without more research it is difficult to make deterministic claims about bubbles and unemployment, which is what I think you're trying to imply.

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 11:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not a description of business cycles that enjoys a lot of support.  Not saying it's not true, but it's a claim about business cycles on your part that accounts for credit in the economy in an unconventional way.

What is the conventional description of credit in the economy?

That credit has a causal relationship with this, and not just a symptomatic one, seems harder to support, at least with existing research.

Is that because there is no research on the topic, or because the research that there is doesn't support it?

The view I have summarised above is unconventional, but it was expounded by a well-known economist 100 years ago. As I am not too familiar with the academic literature, may I ask you if you know of some contemporary heterodoc economists who might agree with the view I proposed rather than with the conventional one which, if your summary is fair, seems to postulate that credit is incidental to the business cycle and not even part of a feedback loop?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 05:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
The relationship between some poor people gaining wealth due to the housing bubble and others losing it due to losing jobs later is a probabilistic relationship, not a deterministic one, so thinking about the two together would require discounting the cost of job loss due to the bubble by some amount.
By that reasoning we can't use the kinetic theory of gases to derive fluid mechanics from the statistical mechanics of particles.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 11:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it just means that you have to explicitly account for probabilities of less than 1 when trying make an argument about causality.
by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 11:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The argument I'm making is that evidence has also not been presented to justify the claim that easy lending has been bad for the poor. The alternative claim that it has been good for the poor would also need supportive data, but this doesn't mean that the easy-lending-is-bad argument is true by default.

The recession is distinct from the bubble.  Obviously, losing jobs is bad, especially in absence of generous welfare policies.  However, the burdens of stimulus and bailout packages are almost certainly going to be carried more by the rich than anyone else.  (That's who has the the taxable wealth, after all.)

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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