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santiago:
When borrowers go bankrupt, they retain the assets and the lender loses wealth
I'm sorry? When borrowers go bankrupt they get foreclosed so the assets or claims on the assets get transferred to the lender and the bankrupt borrower is left with nothing.

The lender loses in that the capitalised value of the assets is lower than the amount of the loan, generally. But he's the one to whom the claim on real assets are transferred. He owns what used to be his stuff, plus the stuff that used to belog to the borrower. It's just that what he owns has a smaller capitalised value.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 12:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, bankruptcy almost always protects homeowners' right to retain the property, at the expense of the lender. It is how homeowners can avoid foreclosure and it transfers the ownership of the property from the bank to the borrower, with some restrictions.

In a foreclosure, it is true that the bank retains the right to the property, but the net value of the property was transferred, through an exchange of cash during the last sale of the home, to the previous homeowner. The current lender lost and the previous homeowner gained by the exact amount of the present value of the foreclosed home and the last sale price of the home.

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 12:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
bankruptcy almost always protects homeowners' right to retain the property
Maybe in the US it does.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 12:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And even there, the homestead exemptions  usually apply to homeowners; if the bank has a lien on the house, you don't usually own it.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 01:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the bank has a lien against your house, you do own it for the purposes of being protected against the holder of that lien during a bankruptcy -- you won't be forced to lose your home except in rare cases where you might choose to do that instead of other options.  It doesn't mean that you will be able to get out of paying the banker who holds the lien enitrely, but it does mean that, on net, either that creditor or others with less secure liens against your property, will have to forgive some or all of your debt -- usually some, not all.  However you add it up though, it's a transfer of wealth from creditors to debtors.
by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 03:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have a reference for that. The link I gave says explicitly
In most cases, homestead exemptions do not apply to forced sales to satisfy mortgages, mechanics liens, or sales to pay property taxes.
I'd be more comfortable if there were better links on this page, but here's another random quote which confirms what I said.
Texas Homestead Exemption also prevents the forced sale of a home to meet the demands of creditors, with the exception of mortgage holders, note holders and tax authorities.
I can't find a really authorative source right now, but I've found no sources at all that contradict this (though Wikipedia does suggest that in a very few states you may be right).
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 04:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I google the words "bankruptcy lose my home," I come up with thousands of links regarding US and other areas, that all essentially say the same thing -- bankruptcy allows you to alleviate debt in a way that usually keeps you in your house. That's what I mean by "ownership."  If you satisfy the conditions for bankruptcy, it's really hard for a creditor to take your home from you.  

In addition to bankruptcy, there are other, less onerous legal means, such as debt renegotiation, that can also reduce debt to a manageable level and prevent foreclosure.

Nonetheless, many foreclosures obviously occur, and this is because the conditions that allow bankruptcy to save one's home are not available to everyone -- some people lose their jobs as well as their net worth at the same time, so they escape debt by walking away from everything. (This is still a net transfer of wealth from the creditor to the previous homeowner, however -- it harms the creditor as much, if not more, than the debtor.)  But I would be surprised, in any industrialized country, if there were ever many cases of individuals filing for personal bankruptcy and also losing their home.  I can't find any sources that say otherwise.

by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 06:38:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the Spanish situation, from an article in El Mundo a couple of years ago when Euribor was around 4% and climbing. When a borrower defaults on mortgage payments, the bank will negotiate with the borrower to make the debt more affordable, but if the negotiation fails the bank "executes" the lien through the court system and in 12 to 18 months the court forecloses and repossesses the home. No ifs or buts, in Spain if you don't pay your mortgage you're evicted within 2 years at the latest (because court processes take long).

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 06:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though recently a new law has made it possible for individuals to suspend payments and reorganize their debt like a private firm would, thus bringing the situation closer to what you describe - you don't lose your home but the court confiscates and manages your income, giving you a living allowance and dividing up the rest among your creditors.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 06:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In how many cases do people ever end up getting kicked out of their homes?  If the cases are few and far between, as I expect they are, this means that even Spain's bankruptcy laws provide practical escape from debt and security of home ownership. I.e., a practical transfer of wealth from creditors to debtors.
by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 06:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spanish banks have acquired so many properties through foreclosure and repossession in the last year or two that they have set up special real estate subsidiaries to sell their stock of foreclosed property. I don't have statistics on the number of repossessions, though.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 07:00:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like the Swedish banks 15 years ago.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:32:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, here's a source: La Verdad, a regional newspaper from Alicante.

The article claims that the number of foreclosed and repossessed homes in the province of Alicante in the first 9 months of 2009 is 2257, 65% higher than the previous year, and that around 6000 more families are "at risk". The population of the province of Alicante is 1.9 million.

Also, in July the governing body of the Spanish Judiciary published a report claiming that the number of foreclosures in the first half of the year had doubled from one year earlier and forecast that in 2009 there would be 160,000 foreclosures nationally. A separate report claimed each additional percentage point of the Euribor would result in 50,000 additional repossessions. The population of Spain is under 47 million.

Even though Euribor is now at historical lows (about 1%) a year ago it was 5% and the resulting wave of repossessions is only now reaching the courts.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 07:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in cases of bankruptcy proceedings, how many end up in people losing their homes.  Foreclosures are up everywhere, but, as I said before, foreclosures are almost always a net transfer of wealth from bankers to homeowners -- in this case to the previous homeowner who sold the home to the one who eventually lost it to foreclosure.
by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 07:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if the bank gets bailed out with taxpayer money.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 08:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless the bailout were completely funded by taxing the poor instead of the rich.  This is unlikely to be the case because progressive taxation exists in all OECD countries (even in the US, since taxation is even more progressive in the US than Europe, oddly enough), and any tax increases to pay for stimulus deficits will almost certainly have to come in the form of increasing taxes on wealthier people.  This means that bank bailouts effectively tax most wealthy people in order to bail out some wealthy people, so I think it is still is unlikely to affect the net distribution of wealth to the poor in the form of loan write offs.
by santiago on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:29:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is, it didn't use to be possible for individuals to save their home by filing for bankruptcy. If you didn't pay your mortgage you got foreclosed and repossessed, period. That's what secured credit means.

foreclosures are almost always a net transfer of wealth from bankers to homeowners

With the foreclosed person as collateral damage?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 02:16:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it didn't use to be possible for individuals to save their home by filing for bankruptcy.

As far as I know, it's still not, at least in the US.  The home exemption means that other creditors cannot force you to sell your home as an asset to pay them.  Only a certain amount of equity is exempt.  The mortgage is a different story -- you can't discharge it in bankruptcy and banks can foreclose and take their asset back, although I think they have to wait until the other debt is discharged before they proceed.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 03:01:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to a rather poorly sourced Wikipedia link I posted on another thread, there are actually a few states in which the homestead exemption even applies to mortgages. I haven't been able to figure out which states, if any, this applies to.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 03:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially in the US, bankruptcy is the policy means available to individuals to reduce debt and save their  homes.  Very few bankruptcies in the US occur in which individuals lose their homes, and the reason most people file for bankruptcy is to save their homes (while escaping from their medical bills).
by santiago on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just as long as you continue paying your mortgage, you won't lose your home in bankruptcy proceedings in the US, that is true.

But when people default on their mortgage they can get foreclosed and repossessed, and they will unless the bank has inexplicably (heh) misplaced the loan documents.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is exactly how it works in the US.
by santiago on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the argument I'm trying to make is that whether or not there are specific provisions in bankruptcy laws that protect home-ownership rights above creditors' rights, the effective use of individual bankruptcy has always been to save people's homes.  Filing for bankruptcy allows individuals to be forgiven other debts in order to be able to afford to pay -- usually also under reduced conditions -- their primary, secured debt in their own home.  It's still a net transfer of wealth from creditors to debtors.  In fact, some recent US Fed research blamed popping of the housing bubble on the new bankruptcy laws in the US which made it more difficult for people to escape credit card debt by filing for bankruptcy (which meant they started paying the credit cards instead of their home mortgages, causing delinquency to spike soon after the new bankruptcy law went into effect).
by santiago on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
the new bankruptcy laws in the US which made it more difficult for people to escape credit card debt by filing for bankruptcy
I remember the heavy debate on those laws when I was in the US in the early noughties. It makes you wonder whether the lobbyists who made the new bankruptcy laws happen were consciously laying the groundwork for the subprime bubble.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Repossessions forecast 'overestimated', say mortgage lenders | Money | guardian.co.uk

More homeowners are likely to avoid repossession than previously expected during the recession, according to the Council of Mortgage Lenders. But the CML's announcement today that it had overestimated the number of people likely to lose their home this year coincided with data showing the number of actual repossessions in the first three months were 62% higher than a year earlier.

The CML has cut its estimate for the number of homeowners facing repossession this year to 65,000, from its previous estimate of 75,000. However, the new figure is still the highest since 1992.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 11:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried the a random link that result, that wasn't an obvious U.K. site and got
If your property serves as collateral for a loan, you need to timely pay all monthly payments on these loans in order to keep the property.
Which makes exactly the point I was making, that  a mortgage in the U,S, is different from other bankruptcy laws. You seem to be completely ignoring my  references to the homestead exemption that makes a clear distinction between bankruptcy and foreclosure. This discussion seems to be switching back ad forth between the two, causing hopeless confusion, at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.

An additional point is that filing for bankruptcy has, in the U.S., been made much harder, so people might just be walking away from their homes without filing, while being (informally) bankrupt.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 11:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry santiago, but I think you have it precisely 100% wrong.

The lender has security over the property which is superior to the claim of the owner. In a bankruptcy, the title in the asset passes to a trustee in bankruptcy (not sure what the US equivalent is called), but the bankrupt may well stay on there as a 'debtor in possession', provided he pays the mortgage.

If he doesn't then he'll be out on his arse.

Debtor in possession financing is a huge business in the US in relation to the financing of assets which are in Chapter 11 - ie corporate insolvency.

If there is no equity in the property, then the bank may well decide to let the borrower stay on in the property, provided he pays the mortgage loan and interest.

But the property does NOT - unless US law is diametrically opposed to UK law - become that of the bankrupt free of mortgage, which appears to be what your are suggesting.

FWIW my first job was as an Examiner in Insolvency - working for the Official Receiver (an officer of the court) - and I've dealt at least a hundred individual bankruptcies, and a few dozen corporate insolvencies, with some interesting wrinkles.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 01:27:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's interesting if that is the result of bankruptcy law in Britain.  In the US, bankruptcy provides superior claims to homeowners above all else.  Usually it results in the court forgiving other debts to allow the homeowner to make payments on a lower debt amount to the lender.  But the effect of bankruptcy, as a practical matter, almost always results in reduction of debt such that a homeowner will retain possession of his or her residence, and I'd be surprised if that happens differently in Britain.  Question: how many personal bankruptcies in Britain result in homeowners being evicted from their residences?  In the US, the number is near 0.  
by santiago on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 03:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is the case that bankrupts often tend to stay in their homes, because they no longer have to pay other debts, and then they are better able to meet mortgage repayments.

But the problem bankrupts in the UK have (or had - it may have been amended) is that the home belongs not to them, but to their trustee in bankruptcy.  I saw cases where the trustee came back years later and sold the house over the (by now) former bankrupt's head, paying off the mortgage loan, and then making a distribution to creditors from the balance.

And of course the former bankrupt had to find somewhere else to live if he could not afford to buy the house back at the market price.

So the bankrupt would normally (if he was financially capable of paying the mortgage) arrange for (say) his wife, or a relative he trusts, to buy out the trustee's interest in the property, which might not cost that much if there is little equity.

It is true that in the UK, bankruptcy - alone - rarely, if ever, precipitates eviction. It is actually beneficial, rather than prejudicial, to the secured creditor.

I am reminded of the Jubilee Debt Campaign, where I was at first surprised to see the banks backing the campaign to relieve heavily indebted nations of debt. It took a little time  to realise that if sovereign debt was forgiven, then there would be that much more free income to pay the bank debts.....D'oh...!!

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 03:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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