Confessions of a tax dodger | 43 comments (43 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 0)

Umm, you've been here more than 5 years haven't you ? Can't you get yourself made into a nautralised citizen by dint of residence ? Then you can stick a finger up at Uncle Sam.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:01:26 AM EST

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 5)

His income is from Social Security, and they could presumably come after that. Also, 5 years is not always enough - in Italy, for example, it's 10 years for non EU-citizens.

Furthermore, even if you give up your U.S. citizenship, the U.S. can still claim taxes for a number of years after that. Of course, with no assets in the U.S, you should be safe if you don't visit the U.S. - aassuming that the U.S. doesn't decide that your country is next on the list for regime change.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 10:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 4)

Yes, we intend to research that. At least for the girls, that might be possible. And for Ivonne. But my "Tete de granite" for languages will probably prevent me from French citizenship.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 03:35:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

Does France really have that a serious language test for citizenship? I suspect your knowledge will be better than many other applicants anyway, (It's unlikely to be as easy as the U.S. I have a cousin whose test consisted of writing "The cat sat on the mat"....)

I've started thinking about Italian citizenship (long term, in case the UK. leaves the EU and Scotland does not leave the UK...) and they don't seem to have any exam or language test.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 14th, 2009 at 04:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

It's an issue we only recently considered- we were afraid French citizenship would cost me my SSI pension, even though it's a pension based on taxes already paid. The level of vitriol is high and climbing, and the usual response in the US to domestic blunders seems to be to squash someone.
But the value of the pension is so small it almost does not matter these days.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 04:14:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

I've a feeling it's a long time until they do it (if at all) to people who have another citizenship. But I wouldn't give up my American citizenship - I can definitely see them doing it to non-citizens (I did have a colleague who applied for US citizenship for precisely this reason. That was well over 10 years ago; this isn't the first time this has been going on).

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 04:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

But I wouldn't give up my American citizenship -
The US does their best to discourage dual citizenship. I think I would be faced with that choice. Any one with experience, speak up- I could use the info.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 04:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

They used to, but now they pretty much restrict themselves to saying that they don't "encourage" it. I think you would have no problems, as (if I remember correctly) native-born Americans have quite strong protection from being stripped of their citizenship due to a Supreme Court ruling. But I'd be glad of more details as well, since that might be an issue if I apply for Italian citizenship.

The other thing to check is what the French attitude is. They may have strong rules forcing you to renounce it (just swearing allegiance to France and renouncing other ties as part of a standard ceremony doesn't seem to count any more as far as the U.S. is concerned).

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 04:54:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

I have no personal experience (yet), but France accepts dual citizenship.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 05:31:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

From the French government Public Service site:

Quel est le régime de la double nationalité ? - Service-public.fr		What are the rules of dual nationality? Service-public.fr
La loi française n'exige pas qu'un étranger devenu français renonce à sa nationalité d'origine ou qu'un Français ayant acquis une nationalité étrangère renonce à la nationalité française.		French law does not require a foreigner who has become French to give up her/is original nationality, or that a French person having acquired a foreign nationality should give up their French nationality.
...		...
Un Français binational ne peut cependant faire prévaloir sa nationalité française auprès des autorités de l'autre Etat dont il possède aussi la nationalité lorsqu'il réside sur son territoire. Ce binational est alors généralement considéré par cet Etat comme son ressortissant exclusif et, il s'en suit que la protection diplomatique de la France ne peut s'exercer contre l'autre Etat dont dépend le binational et, réciproquement, pour l'Etat étranger qui ne peut faire bénéficier de sa protection le binational sur le territoire français.		A bi-national French person, however, cannot claim precedence for her/is French nationality with the authorities of the other country s/he holds the nationality of, when s/he resides in that country. In this case, the dual citizen is generally considered by that country as exclusively its national, and it follows that the diplomatic protection of France cannot be applied against the other country the bi-national is a dependent of, and, reciprocally, the foreign state cannot extend its protection to the dual citizen on French territory.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 05:50:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

This is one of the best resources regarding US dual citizenship. It's by a private party but he's done his homework...

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

Basically a non-issue unless you've the need for a top level US gov. security clearance. And who wants one of those, anyway? :-P

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 05:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

Or if you're an ambassador for the other country. Just by chance, in today's Ha'aretz

Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to Washington, told Haaretz last month that he was "enjoying every minute" of his new job. But according to another interview with the New York Times, before all the fun started, he had to undergo one painful experience.
He told of how difficult it was for him to sign an official "oath of renunciation" of his American citizenship. He had little choice, though, as Israeli ambassadors are not allowed to hold dual citizenships.
The ceremony was so traumatic that his friends from the American Embassy in Tel Aviv supported and hugged him after it was all over.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Oct 16th, 2009 at 02:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

US property

Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,

in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and

sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below....
A person who wants to renounce U.S. citizenship cannot decide to retain some of the privileges of citizenship, as this would be logically inconsistent with the concept of renunciation. Thus, such a person can be said to lack a full understanding of renouncing citizenship and/or lack the necessary intent to renounce citizenship, and the Department of State will not approve a loss of citizenship in such instances....

but

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION
Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.
F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN
Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 16th, 2009 at 08:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 4)

That doesn't sound too bad. All that is needed is to convince the consular officer. Compare with Greece

For the renouncement a declaration is submitted before the Greek Consul of the place of residence of the interested person, as well as an application to the Minister of the Interior, Public Administration and Decentralization. The approval of the application is effective after the consent of the Citizenship Council, with a decision of the Minister of the Interior, Public Administration and Decentralization and it is published at the Government Gazette.

or Israel

Once Israeli citizenship is acquired, it becomes very hard to renounce. Citizenship is seen as a personal allegiance between the individual and the State in which rights and obligations for life are a central component. To acquire citizenship, the individual must be willing to risk his or her life for the country, via military service. Citizenship may only be renounced once the Minister of the Interior has expressed his consent on the individual's request. Under section 10 of the Citizenship Law, an Israeli citizen of full age may decide to renounce their citizenship. This renunciation will only take effect once the Minister of the Interior has expressed consent over the claim.

Conversion to Christianity or Islam may help with getting that approval...

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Oct 16th, 2009 at 08:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

You know, I never really put the thought in the forefront of my mind- seems like a draconian move, and it never occurred to me that any protection of any sort might accrue. I guess I've lived so much of my life on the outside of the nation-state I just never expect much from them.

Also, my deep shame for my countrymen and women who have ignored, failed to resist the ongoing tragedy of US actions does not require the abandonment of the moral obligation to speak out, to avoid making the same mistake I rail against. And, considering their ability to shrug off criticism or comment from "abroad", it seems likely that one can speak more effectively from the inside.

Still, I deeply admire the French, for all their imperfections, and would like my kids to be French citizens.

As for me?

I'm 67. By the time I speak good French, I'll be dead.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 05:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

US State Department Services Dual Nationality

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 05:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (none / 1)

From the same site

The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE
In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:
is naturalized in a foreign country;
takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,
and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed.

Here is the key Supreme Court ruling (which incidentally seems to answer my doubt on whether naturalized citizens have the same protection as natural born Americans - the ruling is based on the 14th Amendment, which applies to both).

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 06:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

SSI eligibility (none / 1)

geezer in Paris: we were afraid French citizenship would cost me my SSI pension, even though it's a pension based on taxes already paid.

By 'SSI' do you mean 'social security income' or 'supplemental security income'.

If the former, than French citizenship will not cost you your social security benefits.

However, if the former:

WHO IS ELIGIBLE FOR SSI ?
Anyone who is:

aged (age 65 or older);

blind; or

disabled.

And, who:
...

is a resident of one of the 50 States, the District of Columbia, or the Northern Mariana Islands; and

is not absent from the country for a full calendar month or more than 30 consecutive days;

Understanding Supplemental Security Income (SSI)-- SSI Eligibility

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 06:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SSI eligibility (none / 0)

Sorry, the block quote applies to the latter, not former, case, i.e. SSI = "supplemental security income".

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 06:07:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SSI eligibility (none / 1)

We deduced that. Thanks very much. I meant the Social Security pension, not the supplemental.
Sobering. I need to look into the supplemental more- may already be history.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 05:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

AFAIK you don't need to be a US citizen to get SS retirement checks.

When I worked in the US, they sure didn't ask for my citizenship before withholding from my paychecks :)

According to the last statement I received, the only reason I'm not eligible when I turn 65 is that I have not worked enough years in the USA (still 3-4 years short), but that's all.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 04:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 3)

I think his main concern is that that could change. If you have budget problems, cutting benefits to nonvoters would be quite tempting...

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Oct 16th, 2009 at 01:20:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

exactly. And I still think the US actions vis. tax havens relate more to the need for a goat and capital flight than any sense of tax fairness.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 05:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confessions of a tax dodger (4.00 / 2)

Here is the US-France Social Security agreement:

http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreement_Pamphlets/france.html#coverage

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Oct 15th, 2009 at 05:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Confessions of a tax dodger | 43 comments (43 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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