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Which is why you have a very well diversified bond portfolio, or a cheap bond fund. You can also make sure the bonds are short term, so you have time to get out if the company/country that issued it starts looking shaky.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Short term bonds are like stop-loss orders: They don't work if everybody is doing it.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:53:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus they have lower yields to beging with, and they may not even pay an income.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:57:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and they may not even pay an income.

If they didn't, people would always hold cash instead.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, and why do people put their cash in long-term deposit accounts?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question, given that they practically pay no interest rate. Convenience and lack of information on the alternatives. Even lack of alternatives, at least here in Sweden.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And zero default risk, given deposit insurance schemes?

Also, you have proven by example that the amount of information and sophistication necessary to do "safe bond investment" properly probably exceeds that of your average widow or orphan :P

I mean, it did exceed that of the average bond portfolio mutual fund manager, to judge by the fallout from the recent crisis...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They work when you hold them to maturity, which can be a short time if you buy that kind of bond.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only for very specific kinds of short-term bonds. If the commitment that they cover is similarly short (secured operating credit, basically), then it works. But if the commitment that they cover is long (investment credit), then the debtor needs to be able to roll over his loans when they reach maturity.

And currently there is no firewall between investment credit and operating credit. Making such a firewall would probably go a long way towards making banking boring again. But that will be then, and this is now.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The better-diversified your portfolio the closer the default rate of the bonds in it will approach the long-term average. So, instead of a lottery you pretty much guarantee yourself a constant default rate.

Starvid:

make sure the bonds are short term, so you have time to get out if the company/country that issued it starts looking shaky
But then you have to sell the bond when it's beginning to lose value.

And if everyone follows the same strategy, at the first sign of wobbliness on the part of the issuer there will be a sell-off and your bonds will lose more of their value.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, instead of a lottery you pretty much guarantee yourself a constant default rate.

That's the idea, not the problem. Feature, not bug.

And if everyone follows the same strategy, at the first sign of wobbliness on the part of the issuer there will be a sell-off and your bonds will lose more of their value.

Not a problem if you have short term bonds and hold them to maturity.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:23:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:

Not a problem if you have short term bonds and hold them to maturity.
But you were supposed to be able to sell them when the issuer gets in trouble. So in that case you don't hold them to maturity but instead sell them.

And in a parallel comment you want to receive coupon payments from the bonds which, if they have maturities not exceeding a year, typically won't pay coupons.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the maturities are short, there will never ever be any need to sell them prematurely.  Companies don't go from solid to shit in a second. If som they weren't solid to begin with and you shouldn't have bought the bond, unless you're into junk bonds.

It doesn't really matter if you recieve a coupon, or if you but the bond for less than you get back from the issuer, at least if the maturities are short (the bond fund I have has an average amturity of 0.15 years).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:53:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
an average amturity of 0.15 years
And what's the return on that?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About 0.5 % currently. A year ago it was 5 %.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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