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Guardian: Davis challenges Cameron with call for referendum on relationship with EU
David Cameron today faced a challenge to his authority when the former shadow home secretary David Davis urged him commit himself to holding a referendum on Britain's relationship with the EU within three months of taking office.

Davis set out his proposals in an article in the Daily Mail ahead of a speech by Cameron this afternoon which the Tory leader will use to outline plans to repatriate some powers from Brussels as part of a toughening of Britain's relations with the EU.

Amid anger on the right of the Conservative party at his decision to abandon a "cast-iron guarantee" to hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty hours after the Czech Republic ratified it, Cameron will say he is prepared for a battle with the EU.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Article 50!

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The most likely consequence of this is further Tory self-destruction.

But if it ever came to the UK wanting to renegotiate? That might mean the end of the Kingdom and the birth of little England. We certainly have every interest to push in that direction if they ever go so far.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See:
Breakup scenarios


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Daily Mail: A referendum Mr Cameron COULD give the people
The British people have been promised a referendum by all the major parties. The treaty itself is undoubtedly a massive constitutional transformation. It has been ratified by an unelected prime minister without a mandate.

All these are arguments for a referendum, almost irrefutable ones. But on what? Any incoming government will be faced with the ultimate fait accompli, a binding treaty which it cannot revoke.

[...]

The sort of things we might include are: recovering control over our criminal justice, asylum and immigration policies; a robust opt-out of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights; serious exemptions to the seemingly endless flood of European regulations which cost the UK economy billions of pounds each year; a recovery of our rights to negotiate on trade; exemption from European interference into trade in services and foreign direct investment rules; and an exemption from any restrictions on our foreign policy.

[...]

Some fear this would become an 'in or out' referendum, a decision on whether to continue our membership of the European Union. It would be nothing of the sort. Killing this tired old canard is one of the reasons the referendum question has to be absolutely clear in language and intent.

If our opponents keep trying to make this argument, it will give us an opportunity to highlight the fallacy that there are only two options in Europe: either capitulate to the Franco- German federalist model, or leave. It is clear that this notion of such a vote being an 'in or out' referendum is both craven and wrong.


Hee hee hee. Cameron is going to have his share of headaches alright.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just trolled on Article 50 withdrawal with EEA membership... Comment not published yet...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:03:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the most bizarre proposition, the only possible referendum in "in" or "out". If we had it, then europe would lose and we would have the breakup of the UK cos I'm pretty sure Scotland would secede from the insanity.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The scenario Davis outlines certainly is outlandish, given that any change to the treaties would have to be accepted by all 27 states.

One possible alley for getting more English opt-outs, though, is for the Tories to veto accession of new EU states (this would become a topic in 2014), or to veto parts of ongoing negotiations with Croatia and Iceland until they get a promise for one more opt out.

It isn't impossible that we'll see something like that. On the other hand half of the stuff Davis mentions are 'in or out' questions - there's no question on acceptance of internal market regulation or on the trade mandate. In fact, if the UK wants serious opt outs from internal market regulations it couldn't even get into the EEA when it leaves the EU.

No doubt Davis realises that what he's saying is preposterous and he would actually like to see the UK out.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:
It isn't impossible that we'll see something like that. On the other hand half of the stuff Davis mentions are 'in or out' questions - there's no question on acceptance of internal market regulation or on the trade mandate. In fact, if the UK wants serious opt outs from internal market regulations it couldn't even get into the EEA when it leaves the EU.
Can Davis really want out of the Single Market?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's a nut.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That doesn't mean he won't get to set or influence policy.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many nuts in the Tory party. If the tories get elected, though, and there are no large UKIP gains to pressure them towards a more eurosceptic stance, I think the Eton boys are going to be the ones doing the kniving.

That'd still leave Dave with that fruitcake Hannan and his nice Polish allies in the EP, so it won't be the end of his headaches.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 06:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UKIP tends to only poll well in the EU elections, unlike the BNP which polls uniformly across elections. The UKIP is just an explicitly anti-EU Tory vote.

But if Cameron doesn't manage to tranquilize the base the UKIP might wind up running a successful spoiler campaign in the 2010 General.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 06:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd doubt that. Europe is a second order issue for the Tory base. They despise the EU, surely, but they won't care about it enough to vote UKIP. My prediction is that there will be zero UKIP seats and that UKIP will poll under 5% across England. UKIP might only depress the degree to which the Tories get a lopsided victory.

If I'm wrong about this, though, we'll be in for interesting times.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 06:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a scenario in which the UKIP protest vote, while failing to get any seats, causes a hung parliament.

And with EU membership as the hot-button issue, a Tory-LibDem government becomes impossible.

Interesting times, indeed.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 06:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd think a Tory - LibDem government would be highly unlikely in either case. If there's a hung parliament, the UK will get a Labour - LibDem or (hopefully!) a LibDem - Labour government.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 06:56:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That just sounds like an echo of the Lib Lab pact of the late seventies

Well running the current predicted figures through electoral calculus site, it dosn't take more than about 1 in 20 tory voters from current scores to defect to UKIP for a hung parliament to occur.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 07:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:
If the tories get elected, though, and there are no large UKIP gains to pressure them towards a more eurosceptic stance, I think the Eton boys are going to be the ones doing the kniving.
That might lead to the knived nuts splintering and joining with the UKIP making it a national party.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 07:17:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would be funny if 30 or so hardline eurosceptics exit the Tory party after the elections to form a UKIP party in Parliament. I don't know if they're that nutty, but they might threaten something if the Tory victory is tight enough.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 07:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:
recovering control over our criminal justice, asylum and immigration policies; a robust opt-out of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights
Does Davis really want to join Belarus outside the Council of Europe?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See answer above WRT common market.

But the Charter is not the Convention. So far he's not proposing stepping out of the Convention. I'd think he'd eventually want out of the Convention as well, or at least out of a few Protocols.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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