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This is excellent stuff!

Bernard:

You'll also note that the green plot (number of transactions) has historically anticipated the black plot (sale price vs income), and it's been firmly in coyote-over-the-Grand-Canyon mode for two years now.
This means that, if you plotted price against volume and represented the time coordinate by labelling the points of the curve, you would observe the system moving counter-clockwise in the diagram. This is typical of all bubbles.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 06:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
if you plotted price against volume and represented the time coordinate by labelling the points of the curve, you would observe the system moving counter-clockwise in the diagram. This is typical of all bubbles.

Well, waddya know: there are such "escargot" diagrams available (we French love fancy graphs as much as the next guy, non mais! :)

Here's one from 1985 to 2005 (inflation adjusted), from the Bulle Immobilière forum; it mostly shows the 1990's bubble:

And a more recent one, up to e/o 2008:

If you like Jacques Friggit's work, you'll find all his documents in English on this page, including international comparisons with the UK and the USA (sadly, not with Spain).

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 08:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That first chart was indeed posted on ET two or three years ago, thanks.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 08:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
His chart showing comparisons including the USA, which I cannot get to embed, was surprising at first, as the increase in the USA was much less than that shown for France, the UK, etc., while the value of my home in California increased by ~275% from '99 to '06. But then I realized that his data may account for the drop in purchasing power of the middle class in the USA.  Was this drop that much more severe in the USA than in the U.K. and France or is their data different?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 12:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, USA are really two countries: Flatland and Zonedland

And the price increase was purely in Zonedland, but when you average it it doesn't look as big as it was.

OK, I'm channelling Krugman here, but that's the idea.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 12:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point. LA is different. They aren't making any more areas with Mediterranean climate just now, and the Angeles Crest and San Gabriel Mountains are far more permanent than any zoning regulations. Much more than 20 miles from the sea and you loose much of the marine air effect.

One would think I would realize this, having moved from the San Fernando Valley to a Mid-South vacation and retirement area where the cost of real estate was ~20% of that in Northridge. But then, does not France and the U.K. also exhibit Flatland and Zonedland differences? Why are the leveling effects so pronounced only in the US?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 02:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know 'bout across the channel, but in France it's all zonedLand for practical purposes. First, the density in France is pretty much the same as in the NorthEast ; also, the legal environment is such that land has to be designed as buildable before one can build a house on it - and the mayors are hand in hand with the large land owners to make sure the scarcity of buildable land is not reduced.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 02:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are "Flatland" areas in France too: rural (and often mountainous, so not so flat) areas where the population has been steadily decreasing since WWII.

The bulk of France population-wise is indeed Zonedland: major metropolitan areas, especially in the Southern half of the country.

The previous RE bubble in the 90's was mostly limited to the Paris metropolitan area. This bubble is more egalitarian (progress at last!): all medium and large cities and associated exburbs were affected.

Meanwhile, in Germany, there was no RE bubble at all. Property prices have even slightly decreased if I'm not mistaken.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 06:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, my question about the relative difference between the graphs for the US and UK-FR remain. It looked to me almost like a scale problem.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 09:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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