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Or we could talk about hypotheticals.

Does anyone have any hard evidence about the actual number of community-profit projects, as opposed to the usual rape-and-pillage finance?

I can think of one - and the bank involved is very unusual, with a rare record of community interest.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're talking about a hypothetical: a world in which everything is always worst case.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:27:50 AM EST
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Where? I said there were isolated counter-examples.

If you want to prove there are more than isolated counter-examples, show me evidence of systemic banking generosity and community engagement.

It's a bit of a bonkers argument to be making at a time when communities and individuals are struggling but the banks aren't lending - and the banks and the FT are saying so.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bankers do not have to be generous to supply useful financial services, just like bakers and butchers don't have to be generous to supply meat and bread. They just need to do their jobs, aiming for long term profitability.

Adam Smith said it better: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:50:24 AM EST
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In Adam Smith's world you didn't have long-term enterprises requiring investments of the order of 10% GDP as in your example.

Big industry requires big finance and big finance changes the economic game away from Smith's marketplace of petty merchants, tradesmen and farmers.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, increase the GDP by a magnitude or two, or three, or four. Financing might be found in the entire country, but that is kind of beside the point here. Then the issue of solidity level becomes one of balance sheet optimisation rather than capital (or rather, risk) availability.

Smiths principle is still valid though, but I fear this simple thought experiment by now has been wrung dry of its use. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Smiths principle is still valid though
Not everyone agrees with you, though. For instance, Hyman Minsky claims
[the general equilibrium theory of Neoclassical Economics] means that, for those subsystems of the economy where conditions are apt, the market can be relied upon, particularly if the market is not relied upon for
  1. the overall stability of the economy
  2. the determination of the pace and even the direction of investment
  3. income distribution
and 4) the determination of prices and outputs in those sectors that use large amounts of capital assets per unit of input or per worker
This was written in 1986. Substantially the same point was made by Galbraith in the 1960's and by Veblen in 1904.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not refering to the neoclassical school as a whole (as you well know) but rather to the fact that banks and bankers don't need to dabble in charity to supply useful financial services (as TBG implied). They only need to do banking, and the reason they do banking is "from their regard to their own interest".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is you need finance to mobilize resources, so long as you need to work today for a benefit tomorrow.

And the other point was that mobilizing resources increases wealth. That's why people are willing to mobilize resources today for a benefit tomorrow.

That finance can be predatory is not under dispute either.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:30:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, everyone I know who has a mortage is one example, not to mention everyone who has a bank account...

Everyone I know who's a farmer or manage forest and need capital to do that. Not to mention the iron mine north of the city they'll rehabilitate for about 100 million euros...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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