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Starvid:
People live in a community close to an iron orebody. Exploiting it will cost 100 million euros.
Who will be receiving those 100 million euros, in exchange for what work?

If they are willing and able to contribute the work in kind, you can do this.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For example those who do electrical installations, supply pumps, build and sell mining machines, excavate the initial shafts and so on.

But I see no reason why they would accept payment in shares. They have bills to pay, and these bills cannot be payed with mining company shares, but only with cash.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you still have 15% of the money as cash, per the initial statement of the problem.

If everyone demands hard cash and there is no banker around, the project doesn't get going. You mentioned a "community" being involved in this. Presumably the "community" has a local economy that provide some of the services these contractors would use their cash for, again in kind or by accepting the scrip issued by the mining partnership as a local currency. And once we're talking about it in these terms, what fraction of the community's GDP is 100 million, in your example?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:36:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If everyone demands hard cash and there is no banker around, the project doesn't get going.
Well, that's exactly what I said. The entire problem was an example to defend the utility of certain financial services.

Presumably the "community" has a local economy that provide some of the services these contractors would use their cash for, again in kind or by accepting the scrip issued by the mining partnership as a local currency.
Some, but certainly not all.

And once we're talking about it in these terms, what fraction of the community's GDP is 100 million, in your example?
What do you think? A city of 30-35.000 maybe, so a GDP around 1 billion euros?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why cannot the share circle be widened to include these suppliers? Ad infinitum... The mind boggles, but the entire population of the Earth cross-owning and sharing everything could perhaps change the way people think about transactions.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
Why cannot the share circle be widened to include these suppliers?
Starvid did suggest (when pressed) that the context of this is a community of 30 thousand with a GDP of 1 billion...

The problem is the assumption that everyone is a delocalised service provider who wants hard cash so they can bugger off.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are any number of reasons to suggest why these concepts will not work. However I think the 'what-if' ramifications are worth exploring in order to see how an alternative system might work (by putting aside some of the objections for the moment). I think you would agree?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First, because nothing would ever get off the ground if everyone had to agree on accepting each others scrips before any financing was supplied to any project.

Second, because this would tie up everyones capital (like a forced investment in some global index fund) and stop people from buying that TV, car, vacation or investing in their own small business.

To resolve these problems and ease transactions,  the state decided to launch a universal scrip: the currency.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is why economically depressed communities sometimes give the state the finger and introduce their own local scrip.
Second, because this would tie up everyones capital (like a forced investment in some global index fund) and stop people from buying that TV, car, vacation or investing in their own small business.
See? You're talking about "good times" economics and I'm talking about "depression economics".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, because everyone wants their TV or foreign vacation, everyone remains unemployed? And, about investing in their own business... what if everyone also has on average just 15% of the necessary capital? Because everyone wants their own small business no businesses get started?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone doesn't want their own business, because most people are risk averse and much rather take a lower risk and accept a potential lower return on their money, ie they put it in the bank.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But "the bank" as currently understood doesn't lend out of deposits - it has a state licence to create money (that is, a community licence to issue scrip).

So in your example, the "community" charters a corporation and gives it the power to issue 85 thosand worth of scrip to fund the construction of the mine.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But "the bank" as currently understood doesn't lend out of deposits - it has a state licence to create money (that is, a community licence to issue scrip).
And it can only do this if it has deposits (or another source of funding).

And how should this community empower a corporation like that? Only the state has that legal authority, or the scrips will not be legal tender.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The community doesn't have the power to make the scrip legal tender. However, if enough people within the community will accept the scrip and the community is large enough, it is not worthless. In addition, the corporation has to accept its own scrip in payment for its services and the local government can also accept it. Finally, if the community is invested in this scheme, businesses can attract customers by advertising that they accept the scrip, and local businesses that don't accept the scrip may be punished by customers who want the scheme to succeed even if there isn't an organised boycott.

Then again, it need not work. But it has happened here and there in the course of history.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why aren't we talking about Dubai? It seems to be the latest ohshitohshitohshit!-situation, though I can't say I feel very bad for those who extended credit to those idiot projects.

   

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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