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by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 12:50:37 PM EST
U.S. consumer spending rises, jobless claims tumble | U.S. | Reuters

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. consumer spending and housing sales rose more than expected in October while new claims for jobless benefits fell sharply last week, suggesting the economic recovery was gaining traction.

An unexpected decline in orders for long-lasting U.S. manufactured goods, however, tempered some of the optimism and was a reminder that recovery from the most brutal recession in 70 years would be gradual.

The Commerce Department on Wednesday reported that consumer spending, which normally accounts for over two-thirds of U.S. economic activity, increased 0.7 percent last month after falling 0.6 percent in September. That was above market expectations for a gain of 0.5 percent.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 12:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
China banks' rush for billions could trip markets | U.S. | Reuters

SHANGHAI/HONG KONG (Reuters) - Chinese banks, under government pressure to shore up their finances, are set to unleash a wave of billions of dollars in capital raising that could strain equity markets but also spur innovation in debt instruments.

The banks could go to the market with a slew of new stock and bond offers as they look to raise as much as 300 billion yuan ($44 billion) over the next few years, according to some estimates.

The move would follow a surge in bank lending in the first half of this year, encouraged by the central government under its broader 4 trillion yuan economic stimulus plan. But now the regulator, worried about a lending bubble, is cautioning banks to ensure their capital is adequate.

Three of the country's top four listed banks, Bank of China Ltd (601988.SS) (3988.HK), China Construction Bank (601939.SS) (0939.HK) and Bank of Communications (601328.SS) (3328.HK) have already started work on fundraising proposals, a source told Reuters on Monday.

"There's no doubt there will be a massive wave of fund raising from Chinese banks, but the key question is when, where and how," said Fan Kunxiang, analyst at Haitong Securities Co. "If banks all rush to sell shares within a short period, it would unavoidably be a blow to the stock market."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 01:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the article it seems that all but the big "dual listed" banks will be raising capital inside China. The non-convertibility of the Yuan would seem to be an issue here.  I saw nothing about such issues in the article.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 09:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who now can hear the words "spur innovation in debt instruments" and not tremble

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 05:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I tremble at under government pressure to shore up their finances.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 05:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's Time to Buy Commercial Property, Edinburgh Strategists Say - Bloomberg.com

Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- First it was corporate bonds, then stocks. Now it's time to buy commercial real estate in the U.K., according to strategists in Edinburgh advising on about 400 billion pounds ($663 billion) of assets.

Standard Life Investments is telling investors to consider increasing the proportion of money they hold in stores, office buildings and warehouses, said Andrew Milligan, head of global strategy. Today, the commercial property market compares with where stocks were about seven months ago, said Mike Turner at Aberdeen Asset Management Plc.

"It's the last major asset class where there is still a higher risk premium than warranted, so we've been looking at it," Turner said in an interview at his office in the Scottish capital. "April is a good expression of the stage we're at, just off the lows and starting to gain some traction."

After gains this year in stocks and corporate bonds, Scotland's biggest fund management firms are honing in on where they reckon money can be made next.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 01:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is the perfect time for the average investor to go into Commercial Real Estate. Lets see. There are numerous large CRE loans that are coming up for re-financing just when occupancy are in the tank big time and seems to be going deeper. Perhaps these guys should be required to wear large, flashing neon signs saying "Sell Side Analyst. Buyer Beware!"

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 09:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, I did imagine it was unlikely, but you nailed it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 05:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Company Profits in U.S. Stage `Lopsided' Gain on Banking Surge - Bloomberg.com

In the first three quarters of 2009, profits at financial institutions soared 198 percent, the biggest nine-month gain since records began in 1948. Earnings were down 65 percent in the nine months ended in December 2008, the biggest such decrease on record.

"The financials were a basket case," said Naroff. "The companies are coming off such a low basis that it's easy to get a big increase."

The Standard & Poor's Financial Supercomposite Index has climbed 123 percent since March 9, compared with a 63 percent gain in the S&P 500 Index. The S&P 500 fell to a 12-year low on March 9.

The jump in profits is probably not evenly distributed among banks, said Naroff, making it less likely that the money will find its way back into the economy in the form of loans.

"Unfortunately, not every company is a Goldman," Naroff said. "Not everyone is going to make tons of money." The banking system's ability to boost lending and spur business investment "will look more like a slow stream than a river."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 01:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Unfortunately, not every company is a Goldman," Naroff said. "Not everyone is going to make tons of money." The banking system's ability to boost lending and spur business investment "will look more like a slow stream than a river."

Unfortunately??!!! Well, perhaps we know what is the situation with some of the TBTFs. Why lend your money in a dicey economy when the Fed will pay a TBTF, but only a TBTF, generously to sit on it.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 10:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Press Association

Car giant General Motors has firmed up plans to cut 9,000 jobs across Europe, saying that up to 60% will be in Germany.

Nick Reilly, a senior official of the US car maker, met employee representatives at a meeting in Germany to go through the firm's detailed plans for the future.

Mr Reilly said that "difficult decisions" will have to be made and repeated that jobs will have to be lost.

Production in Europe will be cut by about 20% and around 9,000 jobs will be lost, with between 50 and 60% in Germany, he said.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 01:08:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al Jazeera English - Europe - GM vows to keep German Opel plants

A senior executive from General Motors, the car manufacturer, has promised some 25,000 workers at Opel's German operation that none of the factories will shut.

But he said the company's plan will still see the total workforce being reduced by around 9,000 people, leaving the threat of closure hanging over other
facilities in Britain, Spain, Belgium and Poland.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 03:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Banks win Supreme Court case on overdraft charges

Millions of bank customers hoping to be refunded overdraft charges have been dealt a major blow by a Supreme Court judgement.

The court has overturned earlier court rulings that allowed the Office of Fair Trading to investigate the fairness of charges for unauthorised overdrafts.

At stake in the case, which has run for over two years, is an estimated £2.6bn of annual income for the banks.

Campaigners said they were shocked and disappointed with the decision.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 01:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supreme Court !! They should rename it the Elite's Court, then we'd really know what it's about.

A bunch of rich privileged people ruled to protect the interests of a bunch of rich privileged people. I am amazed people are even surprised that happens.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 05:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So your Supreme Court is about as worthless as our Supreme Court.  Lovely.

In the end, might makes right. Nothing has changed since the caveman.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 07:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC - Newsnight: Paul Mason: Banks: The world is weary of the past, but boy, was it exciting!

The historian is concerned with finished facts, a journalist has to be concerned not just with real-time information but with the near future. So all these secrets are getting a bit distracting.

Just over a year ago I, like many others, was obsessed with the question: what is the government about to do about the banking crisis?

The revelation yesterday of what they actually did - unleash a £61.7bn secret loan to HBOS and RBS - is a reminder that even for journalists, what happened in the past may be the most important question.

Because Mervyn King and Alistair Darling's revelations, delivered in the anodyne and obscure language the British state uses when it wants to drop an embarrassed bombshell, raise more questions.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 03:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gold Is Rallying Because....  Jesse's Café Américain

Gold is the ultimate currency.

It resists the attempts by the monetary authorities to debase it, because except for concerted attempts to suppress its price through non-profitseeking selling at key market points by central banks, and naked short selling by the global commercial banks in the paper markets, gold cannot be created and controlled by financial engineers like Ben Bernanke.

It provides a refuge, a store of wealth for private citizens during a period of general currency risk.

....

Alan Greenspan himself states the case most eloquently in his famous essay from 1966 Gold and Economic Freedom.  [And here we will go to that link and quote more extensively than did Jesse:]

Gold and Economic Freedom
by Alan Greenspan
[written in 1966]

    This article originally appeared in a newsletter: The Objectivist published in 1966 and was reprinted in Ayn Rand's Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense - perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire - that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.


Thanks to Greenspan's decades long efforts at the Fed Ayn Rand's "Unknown Ideal" capitalism came to be all too real. But would not the Chairman of the Board of the Federal Reserve System of the USA normally be considered "a statist"? Yet Greenspan never disavowed his belief in the desirability of the gold standard. I have seen critics contend that he deliberately drove the US financial system into the ground to drive home the need for a gold standard. But I suspect that his actions were just intended to facilitate further  the self-aggrandizement of the Masters of the Universe, who Greenspan saw as embodiments of the Randian Ideal, and that this argument is just another lame attempt to devise "a superior moral justification for greed." Indeed, what else is the entire body of Ayn Rand's writings? Superlatively lame.

Ayn Rand's "philosophy" is a map which, when followed, seems to have blown up the world's largest economy. Who could have imagined that putting in charge of that economy a man who did not believe in the morality or appropriateness of the fundamental structure of that economy or in performing many of his legislatively mandated regulatory functions could end so badly? More than a few, it seems.

I do not know if gold is the ultimate currency, but it does seem, just now, to be a store of value superior to the US Dollar, and it seems likely to retain that superiority for a while before it too falls back to, or at least towards earth.


As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Nov 25th, 2009 at 11:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gold is only as useful as its pricing structure. Like oil, that price is useless if it is denominated in a reserve currency that's falling through the floor.

It is not like international standards of measurement or temperature that are constants defined by the universe, gold is just another barometric phenomenon, flawed as any other.

It might be a useful device to sya there cannot be any more money in an economy than the quantity of gold priced in local currency. That might stop Wall St valuing itself in several multiples of the net worth of the planet, but I'm sure the manic idiots would find some way to finagle their way around it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 05:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
It might be a useful device to sya there cannot be any more money in an economy than the quantity of gold priced in local currency.
And then gold prices will go up...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 06:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
YEs, but you might imagine things balance out. I'm obviously not any form of expert, but by and large wealth can be re-distributed but cannot be created or destroyed. So the sum total of gold reflects the sum total of net worth. How you slice and dice that total is your own affair.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 06:32:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but by and large wealth can be re-distributed but cannot be created or destroyed.

What are you talking about?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 06:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Making new stuff doesn't increase wealth, and bombing doesn't destroy it. Well known fact.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 06:55:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No !! Making new stuff doesn't increase wealth. It simply re-distributes wealth from the purchasor of the old stuff to the creator of the new. The old stuff they had loses value. Every time a new invention occurs, or behaviour changes, there is economically significant displacement activity.

Making a new film doesn't spontaneously create wealth, it just gets moved from consumer to producer. Same with inventions, same even with mining raw materials.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 07:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you just mixed up "economy" with "energy".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even then, since the Earth is an open system it is not true that the energy available to the economy cannot grow.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:51:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant as in "by and large wealth energy can be re-distributed but cannot be created or destroyed".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:05:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In a closed system.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The universe is a closed system, at least last time I checked. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:16:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. we live on Earth and will for the foreseeable future - that is finite, but an open system
  2. the universe may not be finite - in fact, the most recent consensus is that it isn't, in which case again the space within out cosmological horizon may be bounded but the cosmological horizon would be the boundary of an open system


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Making new stuff doesn't increase wealth.

Right, because an illuminated manuscript isn't worth more than a roll of parchment and a bottle of ink.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean when you say "wealth"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Next you'll be tellng me that financial services create actual wealth instead of capturing actual wealth and filling their balance sheet using virutual wealth.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 07:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some financial services do create wealth...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For whom?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:43:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The stakeholders. Example:

People live in a community close to an iron orebody. Exploiting it will cost 100 million euros. No one in the community has that kind of money. The wealthiest man in the comunnity has 2 million euros, and he can scrape together a total 15 million from interested risk-takers.

Thankfully, people in the community deposit their savings in the bank, and the friendly banker is interested in being the intermediate between the public and the new mining business. So he takes their savings, lends them to the new company, which builds a mine. The banker gets net interest, the public jobs and interest on their accounts, and the investor get profits.

None of this new wealth had been possible without the finacial services provided by the friendly banker.  

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought mining raw materials doesn't increase wealth.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, because iron ore is so hugely useful when buried underground.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:03:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Precisely.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but if you leave it there you can use it to not increase wealth in the future.

Oh, wait ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Meanwhile, in the real world - the bankers come in, strip mine the wealth, and it gets sucked into an offshore account in the Cayman Islands, where it's turned into drugs.

The community doesn't see a penny - although they may be left with an interesting eyesore and mass unemployment when the mining is 'no longer economic.'

Where is this paradise where 'friendly bankers' interact with 'a community'?

It may happen in isolated instances, but it's hardly the norm, is it?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The norm, as usual, is somewhere between the two extremes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, suppose there's no banker and instead Chris Cook convinces the firm that will build the mine to contribute 85 million worth of work "in kind" which, together with the 15 million the community will raise, allows the mine to be built. The future revenue from the mine is divided proportionally to this initial contribution of "capital". Eventually, assuming the development was well advised, well over 100 million worth of revenue will accrue to the project.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then Cris will essentially be the banker...

Or uh, where would these 85 million come from, if the company only has 15?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 85 million are contributed in kind.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the construction company essentially works for free (well, they get 15 million in cash) and in return they get 85 % of the shares in the company?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or what? I don't understand this.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:03:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, uh, why would a construction company want to own 85 % of a mine? If they were interested in that, they'd be a mining company instead. Taking the extra risk seems strange too, why do they want to do that? Iron prices might fall, miner strikes might happen, lots of stuff can reduce (or increase) the profits of the mine. If I ran a construction company I'd want prompt cash payment, and if I were interested in the iron mine I'd buy shares in it.

And why would the initial investors want to cede control of their company to the construction company?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why you need bankers...

But suppose that the construction company doesn't have any other business opportunities because there's a depression. Here you have: an idle construction company, idle prospective miners, a community with an idle iron ore, and investors with 15% of the cash necessary to mobilize all these resources.

Money is very useful, and fiat money more so, in greasing economic activity. But in situations where resources are idle because of lack of money you have to monetize the resources internally to a partnership in order to make things happen. If the construction company wants to become a partner, the project happens. If they don't, it doesn't. If they don't have other projects available, they lie idle, too.

As Minsky put it, anyone can create money, the problem is to have it accepted as such. Partnership arrangements are ways to turn assets into money acceptable to the partners. If you bring enough of the community into the partnership you may even be able to feed everyone. Otherwise they can all line up at the employment office and the soup kitchen.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:25:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reminds me of a Swede who started his won currency twentysomething years ago. He was bee-keeper, so each bill was backed by a can of honey. Kinda cute.
   

The purpose of Kjell Holmstrands Klöver [Clover, the name of his currency] is that the money should stay in the local area. He means the capital should stay in Orsa [where he lives] and not end up somewhere else. That's why he also opposes the Euro.

- We shall keep our money in our own country, he says. The Euro means we'll have to send even more money to the bureaucrats in Frankfurt/Brussels. Then we'll have to stand there with the cap in our hand and bow and beg, so the merciful gentlemen will give us back some of our own money.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't worked out where they get the money to pay their staff or suppliers though. Maybe builders don't eat until the mine produces?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you hire people from the "community" to do these jobs they may accept "community mining scrip" as part of their payment. If you bring the staff and supplies from far away, they'll want their hard cash so they can bugger off.

We're talking about depression economics here: the problem of mobilizing sufficient, willing local resources when there isn't enough money locally and no access to credit from the broader economy.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're talking about depression economics here
Are we? Since when? I am talking about the utility of financial services not only during depressions, and I think Chris Cook believes his system is designed to operate during all parts of the business cycle.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:46:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or we could talk about hypotheticals.

Does anyone have any hard evidence about the actual number of community-profit projects, as opposed to the usual rape-and-pillage finance?

I can think of one - and the bank involved is very unusual, with a rare record of community interest.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're talking about a hypothetical: a world in which everything is always worst case.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where? I said there were isolated counter-examples.

If you want to prove there are more than isolated counter-examples, show me evidence of systemic banking generosity and community engagement.

It's a bit of a bonkers argument to be making at a time when communities and individuals are struggling but the banks aren't lending - and the banks and the FT are saying so.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 10:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bankers do not have to be generous to supply useful financial services, just like bakers and butchers don't have to be generous to supply meat and bread. They just need to do their jobs, aiming for long term profitability.

Adam Smith said it better: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Adam Smith's world you didn't have long-term enterprises requiring investments of the order of 10% GDP as in your example.

Big industry requires big finance and big finance changes the economic game away from Smith's marketplace of petty merchants, tradesmen and farmers.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, increase the GDP by a magnitude or two, or three, or four. Financing might be found in the entire country, but that is kind of beside the point here. Then the issue of solidity level becomes one of balance sheet optimisation rather than capital (or rather, risk) availability.

Smiths principle is still valid though, but I fear this simple thought experiment by now has been wrung dry of its use. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Smiths principle is still valid though
Not everyone agrees with you, though. For instance, Hyman Minsky claims
[the general equilibrium theory of Neoclassical Economics] means that, for those subsystems of the economy where conditions are apt, the market can be relied upon, particularly if the market is not relied upon for
  1. the overall stability of the economy
  2. the determination of the pace and even the direction of investment
  3. income distribution
and 4) the determination of prices and outputs in those sectors that use large amounts of capital assets per unit of input or per worker
This was written in 1986. Substantially the same point was made by Galbraith in the 1960's and by Veblen in 1904.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not refering to the neoclassical school as a whole (as you well know) but rather to the fact that banks and bankers don't need to dabble in charity to supply useful financial services (as TBG implied). They only need to do banking, and the reason they do banking is "from their regard to their own interest".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is you need finance to mobilize resources, so long as you need to work today for a benefit tomorrow.

And the other point was that mobilizing resources increases wealth. That's why people are willing to mobilize resources today for a benefit tomorrow.

That finance can be predatory is not under dispute either.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:30:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, everyone I know who has a mortage is one example, not to mention everyone who has a bank account...

Everyone I know who's a farmer or manage forest and need capital to do that. Not to mention the iron mine north of the city they'll rehabilitate for about 100 million euros...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the original story, where does this firm come from? It's not part of the original local set-up. And it has the capability to advance, not out of thin air, 85mns' worth in kind.

Nice if you can find it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
People live in a community close to an iron orebody. Exploiting it will cost 100 million euros.
Who will be receiving those 100 million euros, in exchange for what work?

If they are willing and able to contribute the work in kind, you can do this.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For example those who do electrical installations, supply pumps, build and sell mining machines, excavate the initial shafts and so on.

But I see no reason why they would accept payment in shares. They have bills to pay, and these bills cannot be payed with mining company shares, but only with cash.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you still have 15% of the money as cash, per the initial statement of the problem.

If everyone demands hard cash and there is no banker around, the project doesn't get going. You mentioned a "community" being involved in this. Presumably the "community" has a local economy that provide some of the services these contractors would use their cash for, again in kind or by accepting the scrip issued by the mining partnership as a local currency. And once we're talking about it in these terms, what fraction of the community's GDP is 100 million, in your example?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:36:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If everyone demands hard cash and there is no banker around, the project doesn't get going.
Well, that's exactly what I said. The entire problem was an example to defend the utility of certain financial services.

Presumably the "community" has a local economy that provide some of the services these contractors would use their cash for, again in kind or by accepting the scrip issued by the mining partnership as a local currency.
Some, but certainly not all.

And once we're talking about it in these terms, what fraction of the community's GDP is 100 million, in your example?
What do you think? A city of 30-35.000 maybe, so a GDP around 1 billion euros?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why cannot the share circle be widened to include these suppliers? Ad infinitum... The mind boggles, but the entire population of the Earth cross-owning and sharing everything could perhaps change the way people think about transactions.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
Why cannot the share circle be widened to include these suppliers?
Starvid did suggest (when pressed) that the context of this is a community of 30 thousand with a GDP of 1 billion...

The problem is the assumption that everyone is a delocalised service provider who wants hard cash so they can bugger off.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are any number of reasons to suggest why these concepts will not work. However I think the 'what-if' ramifications are worth exploring in order to see how an alternative system might work (by putting aside some of the objections for the moment). I think you would agree?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First, because nothing would ever get off the ground if everyone had to agree on accepting each others scrips before any financing was supplied to any project.

Second, because this would tie up everyones capital (like a forced investment in some global index fund) and stop people from buying that TV, car, vacation or investing in their own small business.

To resolve these problems and ease transactions,  the state decided to launch a universal scrip: the currency.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is why economically depressed communities sometimes give the state the finger and introduce their own local scrip.
Second, because this would tie up everyones capital (like a forced investment in some global index fund) and stop people from buying that TV, car, vacation or investing in their own small business.
See? You're talking about "good times" economics and I'm talking about "depression economics".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, because everyone wants their TV or foreign vacation, everyone remains unemployed? And, about investing in their own business... what if everyone also has on average just 15% of the necessary capital? Because everyone wants their own small business no businesses get started?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone doesn't want their own business, because most people are risk averse and much rather take a lower risk and accept a potential lower return on their money, ie they put it in the bank.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But "the bank" as currently understood doesn't lend out of deposits - it has a state licence to create money (that is, a community licence to issue scrip).

So in your example, the "community" charters a corporation and gives it the power to issue 85 thosand worth of scrip to fund the construction of the mine.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But "the bank" as currently understood doesn't lend out of deposits - it has a state licence to create money (that is, a community licence to issue scrip).
And it can only do this if it has deposits (or another source of funding).

And how should this community empower a corporation like that? Only the state has that legal authority, or the scrips will not be legal tender.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The community doesn't have the power to make the scrip legal tender. However, if enough people within the community will accept the scrip and the community is large enough, it is not worthless. In addition, the corporation has to accept its own scrip in payment for its services and the local government can also accept it. Finally, if the community is invested in this scheme, businesses can attract customers by advertising that they accept the scrip, and local businesses that don't accept the scrip may be punished by customers who want the scheme to succeed even if there isn't an organised boycott.

Then again, it need not work. But it has happened here and there in the course of history.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why aren't we talking about Dubai? It seems to be the latest ohshitohshitohshit!-situation, though I can't say I feel very bad for those who extended credit to those idiot projects.

   

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 12:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which firm are we talking about, the construction firm? Or rather firms, as we are probably talking about a number of firms, maybe one doing electrical installations, one supplying pumps, another building and selling mining machines, one excavating the initial shafts and so on.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:24:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The construction firm or group of firms.

I'm finding the notion fanciful that this stakeholder can advance 85% of the investment "in kind" (in a local community example where there's only 15% of the investment to be found in cash).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:45:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then you need a banker or the mine won't happen.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:52:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are different kind of bankers. Both the useful ones and the locust ones coexist, often within different divisions of the same bank...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Meanwhile, in the real world - the bankers come in, strip mine the wealth, and it gets sucked into an offshore account in the Cayman Islands, where it's turned into drugs.

The community doesn't see a penny - although they may be left with an interesting eyesore and mass unemployment when the mining is 'no longer economic.'

Sounds like Iceland's ex-banks and Alumimium smelters... See this old thread on "uneconomic growth".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 11:51:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
Next you'll be tellng me that financial services create actual wealth instead of capturing actual wealth and filling their balance sheet using virutual wealth.
When you stop putting words in my mouth we can continue this conversation.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 08:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want real value, you have to pay for it.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 06:35:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / FT Trading Room - LSE resumes trading after three-hour outage
During the LSE's last serious outage in September, traders largely chose not to trade rather than shift wholesale to LSE rivals on the grounds that the LSE, having by far the largest market share, was still the benchmark for reliable pricing.

However it has become harder in recent months for the LSE to rely on that mentality among dealers as its market share has fallen below 60 per cent in FTSE 100 stocks. Chi-X has captured 25 per cent of the FTSE 100, while BATS has almost 8 per cent.

The LSE said the latest outage had been caused by "a number of connectivity issues" that affected two of the "gateways" into the exchange's order books that are used by traders. The LSE has about 50 such gateways, which are the mechanism by which traders get access to the order book.



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:24:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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