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The real lesson here is that I think we're approaching the point at which someone has to stand up and say, "Look, this is insane.  We can't support all of this crap in the middle of the desert.  If you want a green lawn and a golf course, go back to the East."  I get that the West is an appealing place.  (Denver ranks high on our household list of Places to Escape to Once We Get the Fuck Out of DC.)  The weather is nice and warm, housing is relatively cheap and incomes (on a COL basis) are relatively high.  And nobody wants to live in New Jersey.  But if Vegas and Phoenix grow to the size of the Big Dogs in the East, it's going to be a problem.

If people don't get that, they're in for a world of hurt down the line, unless they can somehow talk the Midwest into pumping water down there from the Great Lakes (an idea which Midwesterners understandably have no interest in whatsoever).

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they're in for a world of hurt down the line, unless they can somehow talk the Midwest into pumping water down there from the Great Lakes

Toke-in' on the Funny Weed there Drew?  THAT ain't gonna happen.  California has already tried to pump water down from British Columbia and the local pols, who were thinking about it, were damn near tarred and feathered by the populace.

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They're in a pretty bad drought, too, aren't they?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.  

Don't know much about, tho'.

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those pot farms in Vancouver don't water themselves, you know!

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by ATinNM on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 02:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NYTimes.com: Water Scarce, Barcelona Plans Big Pipe To Tap Rhone (July 19, 1999)
Water shortage is far from anyone's mind on the banks of the mighty Rhone River as it surges from the high glaciers of Switzerland down through eastern France. Along its 500-mile route, it is fed by many tributaries until the river spills, largely untapped, into the Mediterranean Sea.

But along the same sea, scarcity of fresh water is an increasingly nagging issue farther west, in the arid regions of eastern Spain. Planners predict that in the area around Barcelona, Spain's second-largest city and the main seat of industry, the shortage of drinking water may become severe.

So Barcelona has developed a daring plan: to build a pipeline through southern France and the Pyrenees to carry water from the Rhone River to Spain. The 200-mile aqueduct could provide water for more than 4.5 million people, who would pay for the project with higher water bills. Although the plan is still far from approved, it is the first time a pipeline of this scale to carry water from one country to another is being seriously considered in Europe.

This plan was again talked about when Barcelona experienced water rationing a year or two ago. And they had trouble with electrical power, too, about the same time. Looks like a pattern...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the French are willing to cooperate, they had better get it done while that remains the case.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NO!

Going to need the Rhone valley for food production.

Spain has the entire Atlantic Ocean sitting there.  Better to use the money to build desalinization plants.  Yes it will be more expensive - but the Portuguese, if they get their act together - should be willing to kick-in some of the money as well.  Also some of the costs can be offset with "mining" the sea salt and other minerals that will be left behind once the water is extracted.  

Plus, if things are done right, the operation should be fed electricity from that wind power plant you're going to build next door.  

But then I'm on drugs I think in Systems, not by problems.

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 02:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
someone has to stand up and say, "Look, this is insane

yeah, everyone needs to stand up about a lot of things, but who's listening?

..apart from the others who stood up too?

it's way beyond madness, have your change ready.

(miss that sig already!)

~Government budget deficits are not nearly as dangerous as the deficits we have created in vital and complex natural systems.~ Naomi Klein.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Nov 17th, 2009 at 01:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Be careful when considering the Denver area as part of your retirement plan. While a lot of its water comes from the western slope (a problem in itself), much of the recent development relies on water from a large aquifer (four of them, layered, actually) that is not recharging. There are huge developments in Douglas county, richest and fastest growing county in [mumble, the state? the country? the world?] where the mortgages extend beyond the time when the water will run out.

Talk about being underwater on your loan!

There is also a large subdivision in Colorado Springs where they messed up the water rights and basically don't have any. Be aware when moving west that we have two things you don't have back east--besides sunny days--which are:

- Separable property rights. You only get the surface rights to your building lot. The Union Pacific railroad probably owns the mineral rights, which means that they can come in and put a gas well in your front yard and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Happens all the time.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/328/16489

- A completely separate legal and judicial system controlling water. If you put a stone wall or driveway or cute little pond in your yard, you're almost certainly breaking the law, and the law is enforced. Happens all the time.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/lot-61473-pond-cracks.html

by asdf on Wed Nov 18th, 2009 at 01:23:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.  Yeah, this would be the kind of concern to watch for, for us.  What is it y'all say out there?  "Whiskey is for drinkin', but water is for fightin'" or something?

Not retirement, though.  There might not be a Denver by then.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Nov 18th, 2009 at 04:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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