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That's bullshit (understandable, but still bullshit).  He actual used his hand to prevent the ball going over the dead ball line and guide it onto his foot.  I'm not sure how the trigonometry works, but the TV replays appear to give an accurate graphically constructed line showing the offside line (simulating a view across the pitch in line with the last defender) without the need for transponders.

The technical difficulty with the offside rule is that it applies at the instance the ball is kicked up field - not at the instant a player receives it.  So you have to know both the relative positions of all the players and the precise moment the ball was kicked toward them.

This is a very difficult rule to implement because a linesman has to be literally looking at the player passing the ball (who could be 50 metres back) and across the line of the last defender at the same time - i.e. in two different directions at the same time.  A player can be 10 yards past the last defender when the ball actually arrives and still be onside provided he was parallel with the last defender when the ball was kicked up field.

A camera angle (far from the pitch) which can take in both the passing and the receiving player at the same time is required, and TV Companies have become adept at providing this AND also providing a graphic representation of the offside line as if the camera was exactly in line with the last defender.  Presumably there is some fancy program which works out the math based on the exact position (at the instant the ball is passed) of the passing player, the receiving player, and the camera itself.

It is arguably a rule which can ONLY be accurately enforced with the aid of cameras and computer technology.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 04:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The technical difficulty with the offside rule is that it applies at the instance the ball is kicked up field - not at the instant a player receives it.  So you have to know both the relative positions of all the players and the precise moment the ball was kicked toward them.

This is a very difficult rule to implement because a linesman has to be literally looking at the player passing the ball (who could be 50 metres back) and across the line of the last defender at the same time - i.e. in two different directions at the same time.

The linesman only has to be looking at both passer and attacker if he or she has no other way of telling the timing of the pass. Hence the transponders, and a beep in the ear when the ball is struck toward that linesman's goal line.

Of course, a player could head or chest a ball to the attacker, but they would not normally be so far back.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can a transponder tell the timing of the pass?  A player could be kicking another player, the ball could be deflected off another player (attacking or defending).  Trust me - the current TV/Computer triangulation methods seem to work - and its damn hard to get it right all the time if you are a linesman without recourse to video technology.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 05:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please note also that only players actively influencing play can be deemed offside and there can be an awful lot of interpretation as to exactly what that means...

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offside_%28association_football%29


notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 05:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the end the conclusion is that the offside rule can only be applied after game has been stopped "naturally", to decide on ball possession or possibly a goal.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 06:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My view would be that video adjudication should only be allowed where a "goal" has been scored or a penalty awarded and the ref isn't sure  - so he gets a second opinion from the video ref.  - which can include a consideration of whether their might have been an offside leading up to the goal/penalty whether or not it was flagged by the linesman.  In other words where the ref considers a linesman may have flagged an offside in error, or where he may have failed to flag an offside in error, and a goal/penalty award depends on the outcome.

In other words the video ref will only very occasionally be called on for an opinion.

Where an offside is flagged or an alleged offside is not flagged in normal play but where there are no immediate major consequences the ref/linesman should just make the decision as they do now without anyone having recourse to the video ref.  Of course there may be some wrong calls made in that instance, but where there are no major consequences it is best to just let the play carry on immediately as now.

The major problems in soccer are :

  1. Goals which are not allowed which should have been

  2. Goals which are allowed which should not have been

  3. Penalties which are awarded when a player actually dived or simulated a foul

  4. Penalties which are not awarded where a foul actually occurred in the penalty area.

  5. Players wrongly yellow/red carded or not carded when the ref was unsighted/unsure

The video ref should only be called on to improve the accuracy of decisions in those important and contentious circumstances and thus hopefully improve the fairness of results and the incidence of players diving/cheating/feigning injury to get other players sent off or undeserved penalties awarded.

In rugby, the decision to consult the video ref is at the discretion of the ref and is done when the ref is not sure about what the correct decision should be.  It only applies to tries although video footage can also be used in disciplinary procedings afterwards for yellow/red card offences which may or may not have been spotted by the ref at the time.  There is an independent "citing commissioner" who reviews the video footage and decides whether any incidents occurred which warrant disciplinary action or investigation.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 06:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's impractical, when the majority of problematic offside errors are when they are called wrongly, yet the game is stopped before a goal has been scored (or at any rate the defending team can claim to have stopped playing).

If you pass the ball to the striker who will be one to one against the goalkeeper, the odds are that he will score. But he has not, yet. If he's called offside, wrongly (very common), he won't have a chance to show he was going to score.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 03:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Therefore the game should be allowed to stop naturally and then reviewed.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 04:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, then the keeper will make a desperate dive in the striker's legs and get injured, and you'll get complaints that an obvious offside should have stopped play.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 05:04:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you play keeper? I do. I say let play continue and review if there's a goal.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 05:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I say give the option to the ref to do so, but it shouldn't be a requirement.

If you're certain there's an offside, call it.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, by the way, the honest answer was "I used to".

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Rugby the use of the TVO (TV official) is purely to review whether a valid trey has been scored if the ref isn't sure.  It happens maybe one in three tries scored.  It is not used if the ref is happy a try has been scored, or to review play leading up to the try - other than in the second or so before the actual touch down to check for a knock on or other offence the ref might have missed.

I do not think the TVO should be brought in other than at the request of the ref (NOT by team players or managers), and only if the ref has doubts about whether to award a goal, penalty, or perhaps a sending off.

Otherwise soccer is a game played by humans, for humans, with all the mistakes and errors of judgement that entails on all sides - which, unless there is systematic bias, will generally even themselves out more or less over the course of a 90 min. match.

The problem with soccer is that goals, penalties and sending offs are relatively rare and can profoundly influence the course of a match without sufficient chance for the normal random process of mistakes favouring both sides having time to equalise matters.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 05:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Association Football Rules - History and development

Football ruling body is a conservative group of (elderly) people who prefer to keep the game unchanged. One of the biggest changes was to allow two and later three substitutions (1965). My personal experience as referee in field hockey, the sport has evolved with many changes of the rules to account for new artificial pitches and the speed of the game. The off-side rule was banished which provided for ease of umpiring and a great increase in goals scored. For substitutions, hockey has the interchange rule which results in full match action. The game has always been covered by two referees, responsible for one half field and an imaginery diagonal to support each other in difficult situations in the penalty area. The most recent change adopted, after a year of experiments, is the self-pass. You can dribble with the ball as soon as a foul was called. This has further increased the speed of the game and decreased the possibility for players to start a discussion with the referee, because play has already resumed.

For football rule changes I would go for two referees, two linesmen, two goal guards and a video team. Banish the off-side rule, perhaps with the exception one cannot score a goal in off-side position. For a yellow card, send the player to a penalty box for 10 minutes. A free kick should be taken almost instantly and banish the formation of a wall of players which delays play for many minutes. Be tough on verbal abuse/harsh criticism towards referees during the match and afterwards in press comments by players and coaching staff. The FA should take responsibility when a referee makes too many bad calls.

The Association of Football Statisticians (AFS)

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 02:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... it discriminates against linesmen which are hard of hearing, and with the pool of linesmen already limited to those who are half blind, further restricting it to those with excellent hearing might make it difficult to staff the position.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 05:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hearing can be a problem when there are 80,000 supporters roaring their team on, and the linesman is within 5 feet of some of them.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 19th, 2009 at 05:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... in which case headphones for the ball passing signals would be an occupational health and safety improvement as well.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Nov 22nd, 2009 at 10:34:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rugby official are wired up for sound do they can talk to each other and the TV match official

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Nov 22nd, 2009 at 01:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... (rugby league in Commonwealth English).

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Nov 22nd, 2009 at 05:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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