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I guess this is what happens when you use ethnic quotas to fill positions.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 02:11:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, this happens when you chose someone on an ethnic quota who happens to have an ambition of her own.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 03:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sitting in a government is teamwork. Divas are not wanted.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:10:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The diva of the previous government is now the President. Just saying.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There can be only one.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 05:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tell that to Blair, Sarkozy, Berlusconi and even Zapatero...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you care to enlighten us as to why?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Presumably because ministers should be selected for their ability and not for ethnic quotas?

But this assumes that the decision to include a certain ethnic/gender mix in a large team will compromise the quality of the team, which is not the case.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Presumably because ministers should be selected for their ability and not for ethnic quotas?

That may or may not be a valid argument against specific ethnic quotas, but what does it have to do with the case of Dati?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing, expecially when we're talking about Yade.

The spin is that Yade was chosen to fill some sort of ethnic slot, which may or may not be true and may or may not be relevant to the tensions with the rest of the cabinet. Nobody is appointed minister for just one reason.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 05:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What ethnic quotas? I'm not aware there were any. As for ability, Dati was spectacularly over-positioned as Justice Minister, though her nomination to such a high post was more a result of personal favouritism than anything ethnic. And Rama Yade is extremely able, certainly enough for the more minor jobs she's been given.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 04:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are no quotas but there is tokenism. "I shall have so many women and a blanc-noir-beur cabinet so I can score some cheap PR points".

Governments are always based on "quotas": representing the relative power of the various political clans within the ruling party.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 05:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid's assumption is that this leads to the appointment of incompetent ministers. It may, or not. Just as the standard choice of a collection of ageing white men in suits may, or may not.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 05:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Political news commentary as confirmation bias?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 05:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Rama Yade is extremely able, certainly enough for the more minor jobs she's been given."

If that is true, it only makes it worse for her -and that may be Starvid's meaning:

When someone is appointed as an ethnic quota (or gender, or age), he will be expected to act as such. That is, as a token.

Yade was appointed as the token black. Not just to the government but to all of her previous political positions (OK, as the token pretty young woman as well, UMP being very short of them).
In that respect, ANY show of actual personality was always going to be seen as out of character. Ability would be frowned upon as well.
 

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trouble is, I don't know where that line of reasoning leads us other than to the quasi-impossibility of ever having governments composed of other than ageing white men in suits.

Tokenism or quotas may not be ideal, but if the persons appointed are in fact competent, there's much less of a problem, and people will get used to having government members of different genders, ethnicity, etc. But if the competent token is expected to behave as just a token, competence isn't even a requisite.

(This said, Rama Yade has acted out a fair amount...)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:43:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a quasi-impossibility - it's a practical impossibility.

For all of the nonsense talked about democracy, realpolitik is about both national and personal prestige. The EU has been undermining this by not being a nation state, and by not having a single charismatic leader. This disturbs the upper levels of power because it seems unnatural to them.

One of the quieter European successes has been an occasional fondness for politicians who are colourless and bland, but also informed and relatively competent.

This compares favourably with the strutting machismo and overwhelming charisma that's usually expected of leaders, in lieu of expertise, insight, experience, or relevant qualifications.

Democracy isn't possible until politics moves beyond style and focusses on substance.

In the meantime, tokenism is a form of trophy politics - the token politician is owned by their leader, which is why they're expected to behave.

I don't see the tokenism as the problem - because it's the model for most politics. Tokenism shows it up and makes it more obvious. But it's no different in principle to NuLab's history of top-down dictatorship, where cabinet ministers were expected to do PR for No 10's decisions, and not indulge in free thinking.

Likewise for the other minions of Sarkozy, Burlesconi, Bush, Reagan, Thatcher, and all of our usual favourites.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Trouble is, I don't know where that line of reasoning leads us other than to the quasi-impossibility of ever having governments composed of other than ageing white men in suits."

I disagree. She could fully well have been appointed as a competent minister (although she was rather light in my view -but then so were several other ministers).

The problem is not that she was appointed being an attractive black woman. It was that, from her very first step into politics, she was appointed AS a pretty black woman. Her abilities or lack thereof never even made it into the equation. Therefore, she was not expected to act like her opinions mattered.

On the other hand, you could have a pretty black womand appointed as minister because she is competent. In that case you would expect her to speak her mind, but not to have her picture appear regularly in fashion magazines, because the good looks would only be a coincidence. Of course, for that you would need to have a different person in the Elysée palace.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 01:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Presumably because ministers should be selected for their ability

Funny. :)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 08:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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