Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.
But there are equivalent, but not identical, pressures on men - specifically to 'be successful.'

Success is always defined in terms of earning potential and sexual access to attractive women.

In the same way that at least half the male population judges women purely on appearance, maybe half the female population judges men purely on 'success.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 07:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
But there are equivalent, but not identical, pressures on men - specifically to 'be successful.'

Of course.  Are these inevitable consequences of the human condition or are they largely socially constructed?  

If a man wants to be seen as being 'successful' he is expected to work long hours and prioritise his career over his family.  Many men don't want to do that but don't really have much choice.  Just as women don't have much choice often to share caring responsibilities more equally if they wish to.

Can we hope to evolve a little way beyond the present state?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 09:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Wales:
Are these inevitable consequences of the human condition or are they largely socially constructed?

...

Can we hope to evolve a little way beyond the present state?

It is the human condition to construct things socially.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 09:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, can we evolve our thinking and challenge and reconstruct these norms?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 09:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're going to have to do two things: change group identifications and moderate status competition.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 09:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of the urges and emotional responses seem to be hardwired.

You can probably modify them, but I doubt it's possible to eliminate them altogether - at least not without a deliberate breeding program to select for valued emotional characteristics.

With a deliberate breeding program you could probably make significant changes within ten generations or so.

This might not be a popular option, however.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 10:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So we're stuck with gender-based group identifications and status-setting for the foreseeable future, especially in a "liberal" society?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere
by ATinNM on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 02:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a deliberate breeding program to select for valued emotional characteristics.

With a deliberate breeding program you could probably make significant changes within ten generations or so.

I am reminded of
Belyaev believed that the key factor selected for domestication of dogs was not size or reproduction, but behaviour; specifically amenability to domestication, or tamability. More than any other quality, Belyaev believed, tamability must have determined how well an animal would adapt to life among human beings. Because behavior is rooted in biology, selecting for tameness and against aggression means selecting for physiological changes in the systems that govern the body's hormones and neurochemicals.
Breeding selectively for certain emotional traits would likely lead to physiological and morphological changes... And yes, 10 to 40 generations would be more than enough.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 03:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The last time humans trotted out eugenics it didn't work out so good.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere
by ATinNM on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe tainted meat would work better...
Soon afterward, tuberculosis, a disease that moves with devastating speed and severity in nonhuman primates, broke out in Garbage Dump Troop. Over the next year, most of its members died, as did all of the males from Forest Troop who had foraged at the dump. (Considerable sleuthing ultimately revealed that the disease had come from tainted meat in the garbage dump. There was little animal-to-animal transmission of the tuberculosis, and so the disease did not spread in Forest Troop beyond the garbage eaters.) The results were that Forest Troop was left with males who were less aggressive and more social than average, and the troop now had double its previous female-to-male ratio.

...

This unique social milieu did not arise merely as a function of the skewed sex ratio (with half the males having died); other primatologists have occasionally reported on troops with similar ratios but without a comparable social atmosphere. What was key was not just the predominance of females but the type of male who remained. The demographic disaster--what evolutionary biologists term a "selective bottleneck"--had produced a savanna baboon troop quite different from what most experts would have anticipated.

But the largest surprise did not come until some years later. Female savanna baboons spend their lives in the troop into which they are born, whereas males leave their birth troop around puberty; a troop's adult males have thus all grown up elsewhere and immigrated as adolescents. By the early 1990s, none of the original low aggression/high affiliation males of Forest Troop's tuberculosis period was still alive; all of the group's adult males had joined after the epidemic. Despite this, the troop's unique social milieu persisted--as it does to this day, some 20 years after the selective bottleneck. In other words, adolescent males that enter Forest Troop after having grown up elsewhere wind up adopting the unique behavioral style of the resident males. As defined by both anthropologists and animal behaviorists, "culture" consists of local behavioral variations, occurring for nongenetic and nonecological reasons, that last beyond the time of their originators. Forest Troop's low aggression/high affiliation society constitutes nothing less than a multigenerational benign culture.



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(laughing)  You may be on to something there!

I've, occasionally and idly considered the question: did the rise of the EU and the whole European social welfare states didn't spring-from the slaughter of a goodly chunk of the men during WW2 after the slaughter of a goodly chunk of the men during WW2 and the women saying, "Enough of this nonsense"?

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After the slaughter of a goodly chunk of the men one generation earlier...
Trümmerfrau (literally translated as ruins woman or rubble woman) is the German-language name for women who, in the aftermath of World War II, cleaned up the bombed cities of Germany and Austria, removing all ruins. This was the prerequisite for both the preservation and reconstruction of the inner cities.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Oops.  The second "WW2" s/b "WW1.")

Be darned.  So there may be an existing answer.  

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 05:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The creepy thing is that we already have a breeding programme - it's called economics.

Anyone who thinks economics is about money really han't been paying attention.

People who 'fail' economically have an interesting habit of removing themselves, and sometimes their own offspring, from the gene pool.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a culture where the raising of rug-rats utterly depends on the amount of money one has to raise 'em ...

Yup.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 at 04:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Top Diaries

Pentecost steam

by DoDo - May 20
16 comments

A Nomad's Life (A Farewell)

by Nomad - May 10
14 comments

Simple Solar Principles

by gmoke - May 17
2 comments

Rail News Blogging #24

by DoDo - May 12
11 comments

Ferguson hates on Keynes

by Migeru - May 6
100 comments

Occasional Series