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Now they are the first to invest in commercial space solar, whoo hoo, no risk there.  We'll pretend the world is a Chinese food take-out, one from Column A and two from Column B.  As long as it's centralized.

...Bah fuckin Humbug.

Anti' it. Someone care to explain why it is cheaper to shoot those solar cells into the sky rather than put them on roofs? (I don't think the higher yield justifies the extra cost.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 09:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not. But it's so much sexier and more omnipotent than a crappy litte feed-in tarrif for the little people.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 09:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup.  You can obfuscate the story around every energy system with economic and technical analyses, but at the end of the day, it always comes down to whether it's centralized or not.

PG&E, Edison (SCE) and the former San Diego G&E have stymied every effort of Cali's renewable community to implement the technologies that fit so well with Cali's climate.  If it wasn't for Sacramento's SMUD, who shut down a working nuke in favor of solar/wind, and slowly, LADWP, we wouldn't even be this far.

But the big boys like the shiny toys, partly because they allow direct control of the power.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaďs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 12:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At geosynchronous station the receiving array would only be in the earth's shadow a small fraction of a day. That would be the technical argument. The business argument would consist of the remnants of the aerospace industry still in California and the California based solar cell manufacturer who could undoubtedly get a much better price for solar cells to be installed in space than on roof tops.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 11:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
-Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Let's assume

  • space solar panel power per weight: 100W/kg (vs. 10W/kg for rooftop ones)
  • solar panel price: $4.3/W [I'll be generous by using this for the space-based, too]
  • future launch costs to GEO: $10,000/kg (generous)
  • capacity factor on California rooftops: 20%
  • capacity factor in GEO: 99%
% solar panel life: 20 years (175320 hours) full capacity equivalent

So,

  1. electricity from the rooftop solar: $4.3/(175320h * 0.2 * 0.001kW) = 12.3 cents/kWh;
  2. electricity from the space-based solar: ($10,000/100 + $4.3)/(175320h * 0.99 * 0.001kW) = 60.1 cents/kWh.

undoubtedly get a much better price for solar cells to be installed in space than on roof tops

Why? In addition, whay if it could produce in a larger volume for rooftops?

:: :: :: :: ::

There is of course another problem with space-based solar power stations in general: the microwave downlink could be used as a weapon... or cause deadly accidents.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 01:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My intent was to indicate that this is a boondoggle for the aerospace industry. But it is also another bright, shiny distraction from doing what would make sense, but what would be less profitable for PG&E than what they would like to do. When consultants and design firms have milked all they can out of this and it comes down to the hard decision to do it it will, (I would certainly hope), rejected as economically unviable, (else rate payers will be saddled with $0.60/kwhr electricity) and PG&Es will proclaim some version of "see what these renewable mandates made us do."

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find the company does actuallly claim that it can bring costs down to the 12 cents region... There must be some ingenious play with three numbers: launch costs (expecting hyper-cheap next-generation private launch rockets?), power per weight (expecting super-lightweight space construction and further reduced cell weight?), and service life (it would be real bold to extend that beyond 20 years...).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Were public resources to be expended creating a permanent station on the moon and were those costs to be excluded from the final cost of solar power generated by the type of geosynchronous collectors discussed, then the cost might even be under 12C/Kwhr.  Perhaps that is the plan. :-)

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 05:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a clear day you loose about 30% from athmosphere. And then what ARGeezer said about the Earth's shadow. Say  you get 1,4 (athmosphere) times 3 (24 hours of prime sunshine instead of 8 hours of good light (2 hours morning and 2 hours evening subtracted)) = about 5 times more input.

So place that in one column and getting them into space, producing them in a way that stands for being in space, higher maintenance costs and higher transmission losses from panel to application in the other.

Then reflect on another way to get 5 times more input to a cell: parabolic mirrors with 5 times larger opening then the cell. Mirrors or rockets, which might be more expensive?

Last time I checked (admittedly years ago) the reason you rarely use mirrors to increase input to cells is that they have maximum levels of conversion. You get various technical difficulties instead of more power. Which would of course be harder to repair in space...

This is such an obvious scam.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 01:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OT: I will be in Stockholm on December 15. Do you think we could manage to meet?

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 01:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That should be possible.

You have mail.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 5th, 2009 at 03:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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