There are tennis players in France, but it's not a label that's often used to define groups and assign violent political meaning to. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
So I think the question I´m left with is: are there ways to track secularisation in France at all? afew suggests sampling attendance rates of religious gatherings.
Or is even trying to track secularisation considered incorrect in itself - because it would automatically turn into mapping religious groupings?
At the level of confessions, can it be tracked well anywhere? For the Dutch statistics, too, it is a question who is a "Muslim" or "Catholic". It may well be that people with the exact same beliefs are counted in the "atheist/agnostic/non-religious" bin when they were born of Protestant parents, but still counted as "Muslim" when they were born to, say, Tunisian parents. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The point is that, as far as I understand things right now, we couldn't even compare the Dutch example with a French one.
Should I start a separate discussion on that with the same question in a top-level comment? It is certainly topical to the diary. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
This tehnique of looking at how given names change within a community has been used by historians to study the process of conversion to/from Islam over the centuries of Muslim presence in Spain from the 8th to the 16th century. Apparently the process of conversion of Christian Roman/Visigothic population to Islam took 200 years and as the Christian Kingdoms expanded southwards conversion of Muslims to Christianity took 200 years as well after Christian conquest. (Source: Richard Fletcher's Moorish Spain, briefly mentioned here). En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
The English webpage of CBS on methodologies is here but is not worth much. The Dutch one looks very extensive.
Not my cup of tea, though.
Recent estimates are based on those 5000-man polls, and seem to be self-reported. Thus the diagram in your diary is consistent (coming from the same polls). The pdf mentions that the poll method, too, has been criticised: differential willingness to answer pollsters' question could be a factor. They argue that these criticisms are countered by some studies on second-generation immigrants, and that weighting can compensate the effect; however, I am not sure I understood their argument. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The pdf mentions that the poll method, too, has been criticised: differential willingness to answer pollsters' question could be a factor.
To be more explicit: the article seems to imply thst unwillingness or inability (due to language) to answer polls is a problem chiefly among first-generation immigrants. I don't get how studies on the secularisation of second-generation immigrants enables to control that in any way by weighting. But, I only read via Google trnalate -- Nomad, could you read that section (chapter 4, section 3, page 36-37) more thoroughly and 'report' if you 'got' more out of it? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I don't understand this assumption that there are easily-available, reliable, and comparable statistics for everywhere but France, where it's supposedly forbidden to study religion in society.
THE PLACE OF RELIGION IN SOCIETY ATTITUDES TOWARDS HOMOSEXUALITY THE CONTRIBUTION OF IMMIGRANTS TO SOCIETY
The question I posed: can secularisation be tracked in a country where religious groups are not registered, and if so, how could it?
It's an interesting puzzle, and I hoped to learn more about France through it. I don't have the feeling I'm getting anything out of this, though.
Sure. The NZ Census for example asks "what religion do you identify as" and provides a checklist (including "no religion" and "object to state"). And from that simple question, asked over decades, the trend of secularisation in New Zealand is very clear.
Of course, that requires the government to ask about religion, which e.g. the French would object to. But if they won't, there's nothing stopping a private entity, such as a university social science department, from asking a similar question, or one including a question on whether someone attended a service in the last week. They'd need a few thousand respondents to get good subsample sizes, but that's not beyond them. And I'd be surprised if someone isn't doing it...
afew suggests sampling attendance rates of religious gatherings.
I didn't suggest it, I noted that that was what your statistics were about.
I also said I think (haven't got any hard evidence) that religious groups in France track attendance (though they may be tempted to overstate, so as to influence the government by claiming a greater following than they have), also that opinion pollsters may study the same question. It's not forbidden.
What I said for sure is that real attendance figures can take the hot air out of the supposed importance of religion in our societies. Which has been imposed on us since American hawks, neocons, Likudniks, and culture warriors, decided that splitting the world into conflicting religious groups was the new new Cold War.
