Display:
Eh, this blowup happens every time (this must be the 5th time I'm watching it) and is the result of incommensurable political frames of French unitarism and Spanish regionalism. There are a lot of interesting elements and facts in this discussion, the only problem is that the players are irritated with what they view as incomprehension and start to assume bad faith.

I will note a few things:

  1. The Dutch have been talking about Muslims pretty much through the latter half of the ninetees. And maybe before, but before I wasn't paying attention. For us, talking about Muslims is not new. Nor is it new for the US press to talk about problems with Muslims in Europe, including France.

  2. The unitary idea/myth of France and the fiction of equality, combined with the thorough meritocracy of France, have better effects for integration of minorities than the policies of other countries. The problems of French minorities are poverty problems and are as much due to poor urban planning as to racism, with religion hardly figuring in.

  3. This does not mean, however, that the French system can be transplanted to wildly different political cultures. And that means that steps in the direction of the French system may well have negative effects on integration in countries like Spain, the UK and the Netherlands. Integration is a complex problem with a long history.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 08:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see that you already made the point about the Dutch discourse above.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 08:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a fair summary of things. I'd just would like to note that I'm certainly not trying to push the French model on anyone else, just pushing back against people who say the model doesn't work or is bad.

Then there is the partly separate point that by accepting to talk about immigrants in Europe exclusively through the lens of religion, we fall in the cals of civilisations narrative. That's what my "there are no Muslims in France" quip is trying to convey, ie that the very real issues surrounding these bits of the population are usually not predominantly driven by their religion, but by other factors. The religious factor exists, and of course there are people of the Muslim faith in France, but talking about them, and describing them exclusively as Muslims is, in my view, a political mistake.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 08:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It hardly surprises me that the statement "there are no Muslims in France" was perceived to be off-putting, confounding and/or dismissive, as well as factually untrue, except in certain specific idealized frames. Given the history of this issue on ET, of which this is at least the second example I have seen, it is hardly surprising that it seemed to exacerbate the discussion. In these situations "quips" can be detonators.  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Nov 7th, 2009 at 12:41:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series