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I'd say a major roadblock is the lack of a proportional system. It's very hard to channel popular anger into actual political changes as the two major parties can quite easily be co-opted. There's no chance of new parties emerging that can force their way into Congress or force the main parties to adapt their policies in the direction of the new party, to keep it out.

Though one must also blame the Democrats who've decided to fold on issues that actually matter to their voters (wages, taxes, labour unions) while taking the wrong (as in unpopular among their voters) side on "cultural" wedge issues.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:08:14 PM EST
Note, though, that proportional vote is not the only way to skin that cat - the second preference version of IRV voting would be the electoral reform most easily fit into current institutions with the broadest impact in terms of changing voter behavior.

Indeed, it would have a bigger impact than many realize, since primaries dominate party-branch-selection (known as "caucuses" in the US) and central-party selection of candidates. SP/IRV at the primary level would have its own impact on opening up the system, and indeed would be a worthwhile reform to pursue in its own right.

The most promising avenue for introducing proportional representation in the US is the Electoral College system, where winner take all is widely recognized as a flawed system (though little understood that, just like the Senate Filibuster, it was not the original system but something that evolved in the first generation after adopting the Constitution), and where a smaller group of states than an electoral majority could collectively adopt the reform on their own.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is some momentum behind IRV and it has been implemented in some cities, such as San Francisco.  The result was mostly re-election of incumbents but I'd argue that the same type of people who would implement such a system are also the kind who would be elected in this consituency so there's no real lesson there.

IRV is a great idea and expanding it from local elections to larger ones is the proper method.  The trick is getting it implemented in places where it actually leads to electoral changes.  When that happens, everyone will stand up and notice.

by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A second reason why its use in primaries is more strategic than might be apparent from outside ... if the possibility of voting your heart AND voting your head draws more people into the primary process, it will tend to tilt general election results toward the party that adopts it, and anything that tends to tilt general election results turns into an arms race in a two-party system.

If it gets widely established at the primary level, it will start being a case of, "but, it's not fair that its not available in the general election".

And getting it INTO the primaries has its own internal dynamic, since it reduces the weight of the argument on the caucus side in the caucus vs primary debate. So it could see adoption in response to the problems of a caucus system by those who do not want to entirely give up the greater responsiveness of caucus, for the attendees at any rate, in favor of FPTP primaries.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 09:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Introducing IRV into the general election would make the Primary superfluous.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 04:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the steps goes:
  1. Introduce IRV in one primary through the argument about getting larger primary means getting more votes in the general election.
  2. Introduce IRV in second primary to compete on equal terms.
  3. Introduce IRV in the generals through the argument of a better system that we already use.
  4. See the primaries wither away.


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of this discussion makes sense for most countries, but not for the U.S, where elections are on  the state level. If a state introduces IRV, you may have different winners for different states, and then what? Changing the election system to a Federal will be a lot harder.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could introduce this system for all kinds of elections from city council to state legislatures to congressional delegations.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely. But the talk upthread about caucases suggested that the Presidential election was in mind. It might be interesting (though completely unrealistic) to think about each state voting for a ranking of candidates using IRV, and then have the Electoral College combine the votes also using IRV....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 08:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Per comment above, take IRV in steps. Many states have initiative processes nowadays; there is no federal-level mechanism. This is the obvious route for change of voting laws and would easily pass in many states.

Beyond that, the presidency is the least vulnerable institution, when it comes to abrogating ruling-class control. Start where the population can actually affect something.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 01:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In what sense? I certainly observed nothing about it making party selection redundant in Australia, which has had full preference voting for over a century - is it in the second hundred years of IRV that party nomination of candidates becomes redundant?


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the sense that alternative voting allows one to have more than one candidate from the same party without crowding each other out - the party primary can be simultaneous with the general election. So, under alternative voting you can have a Louisiana Primary. And instant runoff means that you don't have to have a first round where you select the top two candidates and then a second round but you can resolve the election with just one vote.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But a large part of the function of the primary is to determine who gets the organised backing of the party machine.

This decision will not - for reasons that are hopefully obvious - be left until election day...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... you said it made a primary redundant, but what a primary does is the same thing that a membership branch (caucus in the US) or central party candidate selection does elsewhere - it selects the official party candidate.

Indeed, it is more likely to get put into place in general elections if it is put in for primaries first, where it has the advantage of offering for primaries an advantage that has so far been reserved for caucuses. So one avenue for getting started is as a way to replace traditional caucuses in states where they have fallen out of favor.

Indeed, the institutionally easiest way to get a second-preference IRV adopted would be in a so-called "firehouse caucus", which is just an election but run by the party rather than the regular board of elections system.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 10:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, because it's five lines as opposed to one sentence.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 03:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, then, permit me to put it like this.

This:
"Introducing IRV into the general election would make the Primary superfluous."

... claims far more than this:
"So, under alternative voting you can have a Louisiana Primary."

You can have a Louisiana primary, but that does not make the primary superfluous, since the primary purpose of the primary is to select the party nominee by a more democratic process than branch membership committee selection or central party committee selection.

You cannot render something superfluous while failing to accomplish its primary task.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 10:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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