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Went to visit a nursery today.
It will probably have to be the one: there aren't that many other possibilities -thus far we found one other nursery in the area, that was in the opposite direction from going to work, and was distinctly dodgy.

On the plus side, it was very nice.

Now, the thing is, this is London. So there is the small matter of the price.
For an under 2, it's the small matter of 1430£ a month.

I always felt that I didn't belong in the rat race and consumption simply wasn't my thing. So that I shouldn't need to run after too high a salary and instead focus on my family. Something that is against everything the neolibs want you to do of course.

In a shot of genius, the neolib-owned government managed to make having children something driving you back to consumerist society -that's 1430£ before you even start having dinner!

No wonder people end up being materialist.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:08:45 PM EST
Did I miss an announcement?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear me, we went to bed too early and I missed all the replies!

There was no major annoucenement, although I mentioned it in a few posts. There has been no birth of yet, but we're expecting a son in February, which is particularly nice when there were fears that it might not have been possible for us.

Mind you, maybe it was nature telling us "you're going to LONDON stupid!" ;-)

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good: I didn't miss anything! How is your lovely wife doing?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, she appears to have eaten a football (the one that Henry handled, in order to destroy the evidence) but somehow it seems not to hurt her much.

I think she is looking forward to her 6 (probably it will be 7 actually) months of maternity leave, starting on 12th January. Not because she can't cope though: she's still walking to the office most days, she's having a very smooth pregnancy.
Although we have a very bad-mannered son who kicks women (well, a woman at least) many times a day, with increasing force. Whatever happened to chivalry?


Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think teaching him chivalry is probably your job. It doesn't appear to come pre-installed.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't Chivalry a way to tame unruly males without spoiling their fightworthiness?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:46:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Possibly, but we are talking about fighting a 1,6m tall, pregnant woman, not the scariest of prospects. Surely fightworthiness could be better used -and surely that's not tamed enough.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
pregnant woman, not the scariest of prospects

I don't know. They fight mean.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
now you know why bankers get such large bonuses, it's the only way they can afford to live here.

I guess a beer over xmas is out of the question with young 'un

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two replies to that:

-I'd default on my mortgage for the chance of a beer with you.

-There won't be a young-un for Christmas just yet.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1430£ a month.

HOLYmaryMUTteraGOTT!

I paid £2800 p.a. for St. Marks half day (Primrose Hill) c. 2003. (Elsewhere on the innerboobz I've related the tale about cheap carrying cost of GBP in my bra.) I tried organizing nanny share. I consulted a creche start-up.

Dude. Is the mini-me toilet trained? That's a whole other market. You give up too easy or you're trolling for sympathy.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that wouldn't sound unreasonable by Dublin prices. A little bit high, but not outrageously so. Dude.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So I take it children count as luxury accessoires in Dublin and London?

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much. Quite a number of women I know have gone back to work after having a kid and paid most or all of their salary on childcare - especially if it's number two. They felt they couldn't afford to stay off work too long because then they'll lose career progression or become unemployable. Prices might be dropping now - though I haven't heard they are - with the econocalypse but so have wages.

We're very lucky to be able to get by with a combination of family, daddy working from home and mommy changing hours.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"We're very lucky to be able to get by with a combination of family, daddy working from home and mommy changing hours."

It's true that we didn't help our case by moving AWAY from the family.
I do work from home a lot of the time, but I must be on the phone for meetings which wouldn't make looking after the baby possible.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, that shows a certain lack of sensible planning!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:10:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Childcare costs are obscene all over the UK and the Govt wonders why women can't go back to work.  

My brother and his partner can only afford the childcare because he works days and she works nights so it minimises the time my niece is in nursery.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 03:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The international team on the start-up concluded, privately: Brits hate their children.

To be fair, the attitude is a reasonable effect of trickle-down socialism [writ large, real estate].

and

To be precise, I also engaged a sitter half day who I sourced from the local library bulletin board @ GBP 10.00/hr.

Lesson: Bundled convenience does not come CHEAP.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jeez.

All that aggro.

Just to live in London.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was at grad school. DrMarketTrustee was in NYC. The alternative was bufu Ithaca, NY.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the govt makes it so expensive to enter the child minding market, what with insurance and criminal record checks and ofsted reports and all other stuff that you have to be totally oriented on the business of child minding to enter the market with a lot of financial resource behind you. Looking after a couple of kids in your front room is impossible

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:11:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Looking after a couple of kids in your front room is impossible "

Ah. There goes the Migeru idea then.
Oh well...

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"So I take it children count as luxury accessoires in Dublin and London? "

Oh yes -although I may still object to the word accessoires, meaning something you can easily dispense with.

The thing is, a few years ago I made an estimate on how much it would cost us to have a baby, in order to know how much we may want to save prior to that. I came up with 1300€/month, which people reckoned was extremely high. I explained that I came to this high number because we were rather well off, so that, for example, an extra room would be extra surface in a not too cheap part of the town, ditto holidays, food and even clothes, where we'd probably want to have quality stuff... This was based on some serious studies by INSEE, and used a ratio of parental income to come up with the costs, expressed as how much you'd need to maintain the very same standard of living for you and your child as you had before.

So, it appears that even in Paris 1300€ per month is  easily enough to do so.

Now in London, ALL of it and maybe more is likely to go into being able to leave the house to go to work -and that is not proportional to income, it's something anyone working is likely to need.

Of course, in France you get tax reduction when you have children, and a lot of state help, and there are more public creches (although not enough of them)... You also get a lot of help if you want to employ someone at home. You know, socialism ;-)

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:46:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, in France you get tax reduction when you have children

Israel has a particularly unusual way of computing child allowances: if you have n children, you get x*n sheqel when n<4, and x*n+y*(n-3) for n>=4, where y is approximately equal to x. It used to be n>=5, with y approximately equal to 4x. (Specific values for x and y can be found here).

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude. When a US public school contractor can provide the same services at 40% discount in 2009, have the grace to admit you are being SHAFTED in Dublin.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Dude. Is the mini-me toilet trained? That's a whole other market."

I know we were both rather precocious and, being vain parents, harbour some hope that we will transmit that, but since he is not due to be born for another 2 months, that would be some achievement.

Although, come to think of it, he hasn't dirtied any pants in the past 7 months.

We'll keep looking, nanny sharing would probably be best if we could find another baby (ours will only be the second child in the entire building...), and of course the other nursery is "only" 800£ a month but distinctly dodgy and we would spend an extra 30-45 minutes daily because of its location. Which we would do if we needed to of course.

"You give up too easy or you're trolling for sympathy. "

If I am it's not sympathy for me -as I've hinted we can afford it, even though we'd rather not. I have sympathy for the majority who can't, however, and feel that there is something wrong when you can't choose family over career because family will be out of the question if you have a merely better than average career...

Maybe I'll try to diary those tribulations when babyboy has arrived.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£1430/mo would be something like £70 a day. You could have a person working full-time at your home for that price.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could get a couple of other families together, hire a building, hire some staff, start your own nursery, and turn a profit.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 04:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Need to look at the regulations of being a "Child Care Center" -- or whatever it is called in the UK.  BUT, I'm thinking, if you called it "babysitting" it's possible to get around 'em all.

In law the label defines the reality.  ;-)

by ATinNM on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK government has a perverse way to use common law to encroach on everything. It seems like the principle is that, if something can be construed as something else covered by the law, then it is covered. Hence
A childminder is self-employed and has to be registered with the appropriate Government regulatory bodies. When registered, a childminder is checked for references, training, police record and health, and their home is inspected to make sure it's a safe and suitable environment for children.

After registration, a childminder is checked every one to three years to ensure they're continuing to provide a safe and suitable service.

All childminders in England and Wales (although not yet in Scotland and Northern Ireland) are required to complete a basic registration course, including first aid training. They may also have other childcare qualifications (eg, an NVQ in Early Years Care and Education, a vocational qualification at Level 3).



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a recent case in the UK that hit the news of two police officers who would look after each other's children after school whilst the other was at work.

Somebody reported them and ofsted launched an investigation and told them they were no longer allowed to do this.  This was because it was an arrangement where they were 'rewarded' ie by having their child looked after in return for looking after the other child, and because it amounted to over a maximum limit of hours per year. Absolutely ridiculous.

The Education Minister has since clarified that such arrangements can take place once the legislation is amended but it does show you how highly regulated childcare is.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, all of that ISN'T a bad idea.  The thought of what would happen in an unregulated and free market is enough to put me off my Corn Flakes® for a week.  The problem is when the people doing the regulating are mindless authoritarian jerks, inflecting causeless and needless "oversight" and "intervention" to feed their power hunger, Dominance fantasies, & so forth.
by ATinNM on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops.  Supposed to be a reply to Migeru, above.
by ATinNM on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But still, a valid point in relation to my comment which demonstrates the idiocy of overzealous inspectors.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 05:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's authoritarian make-work. Set yourself as a baby-sitter, and the police will break your dooor down. Report a burglary or a car break-in, and you'll be met with shrugs.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 06:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My first reaction was "some could but I couldn't".
For instance, I disagreed with the salary of my cleaner (who comes via a company), and pay her more, because at 6,65£ an hour for her I felt she couldn't live decently in London.

Which means she'd cost me more than that, and that's without the required qualifications for looking after babies.

Then I thought that full time has the advantage of not needing to travel, which is something my cleaner needs to do. So maybe the difference wouldn't be so great, even though it would definitely cost more than that. Which means that if we could find another baby, it would be cheaper than the nursery.

I guess we'll try that. Although we reckon it's better to have more interactions, if the difference in price is big enough we'll probably try that, for the first year at any rate. Need to find that baby now.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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