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"Yet nobody in government even questioned it."  Perhaps you'd like to rethink that - and maybe then modify more generalised abuse at groups you don't like - which seem to be rather many.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The admission, made in a BBC program, amounts to a complete repudiation of Blair's own position held since before the invasion: that British intelligence had evidence of there being weapons of mass destruction with Saddam Hussein; some of those weapons were `deployable within 45 minutes of an order to use them'; and that he had no doubt that the threat was `serious and current'. On this assessment of the British government, published in September 2002, Blair had sought the parliament's approval, which he secured in March 2003 despite a rebellion by 139 of his own MPs. The approval was made possible due to the backing of the opposition Conservative Party for the invasion of Iraq.

After the vote, two senior ministers resigned from Blair's cabinet: Foreign Secretary Robin Cook and, some time later, International Development Secretary Clare Short.

...
Here is a summary of an article headlined `Lord Goldsmith warned Tony Blair over legality of the Iraq war' in The Times of London on November 30, 2009:

Goldsmith, then attorney general, sent a previously undisclosed letter [in July 2002] to Blair that a war could not be justified purely on the grounds of regime change and that an invasion on the grounds of self-defense or to prevent humanitarian disaster did not apply. Blair was reported to have concealed the advice from his cabinet, fearing it would spark an anti-war revolt.

http://www.juancole.com/2009/12/tripathi-blairs-iraq-confession.html

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your quotes don't contradict her point in any great way.  She could've added the qualifier that no one relevant in government questioned it to the extent needed.  But this isn't an academic journal.  It's a comment on a blog, so who gives a shit?

Admission made in a BBC program after the invasion.  What's that do for anybody?

"After the vote," so-and-so resigned.  Wow.  Better not kick this crowd in the groin, lest you break your foot.  I'll bet they even followed it up giving an anonymous quote to the Guardian.

Cook also doesn't seem to have been Foreign Secretary in 2003.  He was Leader of the House of Commons.  I, of course, assume you forgot to mention that.

I take your point on Clare Short, because if there's one rule to British politics, it's that you never screw with the International Development Secretary.

Now if only the head of the EPA would stand up against TARP, we'd really be in business.

I'm sure the "previously undisclosed letter" was excellent and sternly-worded and all that bullshit, and it clearly did a lot of good.

Shit, I'll bet one of Blair's aides even read it all the way through.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The quotes clearly indicate that it is wrong to say that nobody in the government "even questioned it" - apart from the fact that it is absurd to make such a claim -  how could we be sure whether there was any questioning or not - in cabinet? Amongst ministers privately? Independently ? etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The quotes indicate that a couple of mostly-gutless little shits filling token positions doled out to half-assed liberals in the government questioned what the government was doing.  Helen's point was, I think, clearly that no one of any consequence thoroughly questioned the decisions, let alone spoke out to the public before it was too late to tell them the government was full of shit.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 05:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"mostly-gutless little shits" - Is this supposed to refer to Robin Cook ? It doesn't matter, it's the sort of comment what some people would call "mostly-gutless little shits" make in the comfort zone of places like this. I'm sure Helen appreciates this kind of support and the rewriting of her comment to give it some plausibility.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 06:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oi.  The butthurt is strong with this one.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 06:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"One thing that has been remarked on that no one should doubt was his political courage. In February 2003, when Robin first told me that he might have to quit the government over Iraq, I urged caution. We both agreed that the threat from Iraq had been grossly inflated and that Saddam was being effectively contained. But I said that the invading troops would probably unearth some rusting stockpiles of chemical weapons left over from the first Gulf war and that Blair would be able to claim vindication. His allies were already briefing that those who opposed the war would put themselves "on the wrong side of history".

Robin agreed with my assessment, but dismissed it as a consideration: "This war is wrong and I will oppose it in any case." Those who knew him well will agree that by putting his intellectual reputation on the line he risked losing something far dearer to him than his ministerial limousine. That was the true measure of his courage."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/aug/09/labour.uk1

In an attack on Hazel Blears, George Monbiot says:

"You are temporarily protected by the fact that the United Kingdom, unlike other states, has not yet incorporated the Nuremberg Principles into national law. If a future government does so, you and all those who remained in the cabinet on March 20th 2003 will be at risk of prosecution for what the Nuremberg Tribunal called "the supreme international crime"(9). This is defined as the "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression"(10). Robin Cook - a man of genuine political courage - put his conscience ahead of his career and resigned. What did you do?"

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/02/10/you-stand-for-nothing-but-election/


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 07:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still not contradicting my points about he and others.  It actually nearly made one of mine for me, and that point of mine -- about anonymous quotes to the Guardian -- was a joke, for fuck's sake.  Who have you got who stood up before it was too late, who could've done something about it?

You can continue this little irrelevant-quote-fueled shitfit, but all you've done is restated your silly argument repeatedly.  The above amounts to nothing more than "Robin is the bestest-best-times-infinity."  You've got bits of what he was saying to the Guardian, from an article in 2005.  Yes, he's clearly a great guy behind closed doors.  Well, La. Di. Da.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sat Dec 19th, 2009 at 09:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And you just keep denying the obvious; Cook was in government and clearly did more than just "question" the evidence, all I needed as counter-example to Helen's as usual over-generalisation. Now find something significant to snarl about.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Dec 19th, 2009 at 11:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy Xmas Ted.

Do you really think that burying anyone's opinion under a welter of self-congratulatory quotes of questionable relevance actually helps your argument ? So you do research ? Great. Does it tell you anything useful ? Think on Ted. Think on.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course it doesn't bury (what a ridiculous attempt to suggest, yet again, that you're being oppressed in yet another way) your opinion (which is all you have). It just indicates the extent to which your opinion is biased and ignores what evidence there is about such a complex issue. The quotations aren't just "self-congratulatory", though some have such elements in them, they do refer to some evidence beyond mere personal opinion - in your case evidently driven by strong prejudice. It's pretty bizarre here of all places, to imply that doing some relevant research is somehow useless - clearly it is to you, given your dogmatic, negative views.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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