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I'd hardly call the agrarian pre-industrial world a "paradise" by any of the ordinarily employed definitions of that word.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 8th, 2009 at 08:04:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fifty years, it may look like on.  :-)
by Zwackus on Tue Dec 8th, 2009 at 04:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would require a quite imaginative and historically unprecedented disaster, such as a nuclear war.

They did not have running water and central heating in the late 18th century. I can dispense with most of the wonders of modern civilisation if need be, as long as I am allowed to keep running water and central heating.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 8th, 2009 at 08:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
may yet match the imagined effects of  a major nuclear exchange.
by wu ming on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 08:04:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Possible, but unlikely.

However, global warming may yet trigger a major nuclear exchange.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 08:08:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
??? I find this troubling.

As recently as 50 years ago, plenty of people in Europe and the U.S. didn't have central heating or running water (cold, let alone hot).

It is not that big of a deal to not have these things. Admittedly it is easier to turn a tap and have hot water come out, but is it really so important?

by asdf on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take it you're not living in the northern boundary of the temperate climate zone? It gets real cold in the winter up here...

Before central heating, people would use oil furnaces in their basement to heat their house - but I made the tacit assumption that those were going to go away long before central heating would. And distributing firewood to every household in Scandinavia would be a major undertaking.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I live in Colorado Springs, where currently the outside temperature is 5 degrees F. I'm spoiled by my nice natural gas furnace and hot water system.

But my family lived in Steamboat Springs where it gets to 40 below zero (F and C) in the winter, and they only had coal stoves. Their domestic water supply was a pump in the kitchen, and a cistern. This was in the 1940s.

We lived in various European countries and Australia in the 1960s and 1970s in houses that did not have central heat. It's really a pretty recent innovation in rural areas...

by asdf on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken.

But I'm assuming here that coal and oil stoves for private use will fall out of use before district heating in the event of a serious disruption of industrial society.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweden managed to use firewood during ww2. Wood was actually used for cars too.

There are quite a lot of great ww2 pictures with big outdoors piles of chopped wood in swedish cities, but google was not with me today in finding any. And yes, it was a major undertaking.

(Saw btw a neat little propaganda film from 1941 that emphasised the values of riding your bike. "You will be saving energy for where it is needed better, you will feel well and you will even look better!")

But if we are to rebuild for a low energy future I think insulating is the first step. We have houses in Sweden that are heated by leftover heat from home appliances and the inhabitants.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Running water is a pre-industrial technology.  Pressurized water from the tap might not be, but fresh water delivered to one's home, combined with adequate sewage, is something that's been done here and there since the dawn of civilization.

Central heating is overrated.  I haven't had central heating for the past five and a half years, living in a "modern" apartment in industrialized Japan, and I get along just fine.

But I'm just being silly and pedantic, here, and not meaningfully engaging with any of the primary issues in your diary.

by Zwackus on Wed Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:11:50 PM EST
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But then, were there many towns ever with that kind of freshwater system without a powerful civilisation keeping the peace ? The Roman aquaducts quickly broke up after the fall of the empire...

Also, I'm in VietNam right now, and pressurised or drinkable tap water is not really existing. Most buildings have an individual water tank, and only bottles allow for drinkable water.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Dec 10th, 2009 at 05:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The romans had both, perhaps we could learn something from the decline and fall of the roman empire?  Any bunch of gibbons would say so.
by njh on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 06:29:20 AM EST
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