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Yes. And?

In the English language, power generation is usually separated in two parts, "base load" and "peak load". Of this, base load is a planned supply that follows an expected demand curve, while peak load responds to actual fluctuations of both demand and base load.

However, German comes closer to actual practice by dividing what English calls "baseload" in two: "Grundlast" is a part nearly constant throughout the day, while Mittellast involves the planned variable capacity, which is increased/decreased in say 15-minute blocks.

Now, one thing Mittellast does is balancing the known (and expected/predicted) daily oscillation of demand. But the other is to balance known (expected/predicted) changes in Grundlast, e.g. say the stoppage of a coal power station for maintenance or a nuclear plant for refuelling or post-accident repairs.

When you speak about base load, you seem to consider the Grundlast part only. However, renewables, especially with increasing grid penetration and geographical extent, can be predicted, predicted with sufficient precision to be considered in the Mittellast planning -- the same way the temporary decommissioning of a large coal or nuclear power plant can be. (In fact, for Mittellast operators, they allow for a more efficient operation than having to adapt to 1000 MW suddenly off the grid.)

All of this is not rocket science. High grid penetration wind power is actual reality in Denmark or North Germany

Temporary storage can enable even higher grid penetration. But, so can the up-scaling of grids -- and the combination of different intermittent renewables (solar and wind have a natural compensation in their intermittence, for example). However, such high levels of grid penetration on an EU-wide basis is still years if not decades in the future.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 2nd, 2009 at 02:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add: I hope Crazy Horse will pitch in on this with comments more informed than mine; while I am told Jérôme is away and unlikely to do so.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 2nd, 2009 at 02:21:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your understanding of modern practice in separating types of "baseload" generation is excellent, and should be understandable here.  Your point regarding the ability of renewables to be predictable is worth highlighting.


However, renewables, especially with increasing grid penetration and geographical extent, can be predicted, predicted with sufficient precision to be considered in the Mittellast planning -- the same way the temporary decommissioning of a large coal or nuclear power plant can be.

While no weather predictions are foolproof, the ability to predict likely wind generation has been evolving strongly over the past decade.  Accuracy increases as penetration increases over wider areas, as well.

I think it's important to set a frame on how to review power generation.  The frame is that we are somewhere past the beginning of a major transition period, from the old world of centralized generation to the distributed world of intermittent generation coupled with a load-following smart grid, including rate structures which allow certain industrial load to be switchable.

They are truly two different systems, and right now we're "Lost in Transition,"  as we re-calibrate the system.  The experience in Denmark and northern Germany has provided much insight.  Most importantly, the utilities involved were quite negative about windpower penetration a decade ago, but operating experience at higher and higher penetration levels turned the opinion around.

In 2008, windpower produced more than 40% of net energy consumption in three Federal states, Lower Saxony, Mecklenberg West Pomerania, and Schleswig Holstein.  These are areas with some of the weakest grid infrastructure in Germany!

The German Energy Agency Dena produced a huge grid integration study in 2005, including the wind industry and the major transmission companies E.ON Netz, RWE Netz and Vattenfall Transmission.   Summary here.   Briefing Paper Here.

As far as I know, the study itself is only in German, though I hope I'm wrong.  Ongoing work is certainly updating the results from 2005.


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 02:44:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wind energy does not require construction of additional `balancing' power stations
The amount of control and reserve power to balance the increasing amount of wind power has been calculated. The amounts of control energy are strongly depending on the accuracy of the short term wind power forecast, and the deviation between forecast and actual feed in.
The quality of the forecasting tools keeps on improving. It is found that the additional required balancing power (positive and negative regulation power, from secondary and hourly reserves) can be provided by the remaining conventional plants. There is no need for new investments in additional power stations for this purpose to meet the balancing needs of the German system with 36 GW of wind power. An overview of the required balancing power capacities is given in table 2.  In 2015 on average 3.2 GW positive regulation power representing 9% of the installed wind energy capacity and 2.8 GW negative regulation power representing 8% of the installed wind energy capacity is required.


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 02:51:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From the English Wikipaedia:

Baseload plant, (also baseload power plant or base load power station) is an energy plant devoted to the production of baseload supply. Baseload plants are the production facilities used to meet some or all of a given region's continuous energy demand, and produce energy at a constant rate, usually at a low cost relative to other production facilities available to the system.[2] Examples of baseload plants using nonrenewable fuels include nuclear and coal-fired plants. Among the renewable energy sources, hydroelectric, geothermal[3] and OTEC can provide baseload power. Baseload plants typically run at all times through the year except in the case of repairs or scheduled maintenance. (Hydroelectric power also has the desirable attribute of dispatchability, but a hydroelectric plant may run low on its fuel (water at the reservoir elevation) if a long drought occurs over its drainage basin.)

You can find similar definitions on Shakespeare language if you google the term, like this from an Engineering company:

Base load (also baseload) is the minimum level of demand on an electrical supply system over 24-hours: the load that exists 24 hours a day.

A base load power plant (or base load power station) is one that is best suited to serving this load because it takes a long time to start up and is relatively inefficient at less than full output. These plants run at all times through the year except in the case of repairs or scheduled maintenance.

This is the same concept used by the local grid operator, from whose publications I have the closer contact with this particular issue.

By saying that this is an outdated concept you are alluding at it being somehow time-dependent. While the minimum demand on a grid can eventually evolve through time, it always exists, even if it is zero. Baseload is a concept bound to the concept of Electric Grid.

Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 04:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The discussion of what baseload means is irrelevant as we move away from the past; how you achieve serving the load is what's critical.  Demand-side dispatchability can even be considered part of that.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 04:43:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The statement was:
reflects an outdated concept of how baseload should be provided

Now, obviously, if there are outdated and, by implication, up to date concepts of how baseload should be provided, it follows that the provision model is the thing that can go out of date.

So it is a sweeping red herring and non sequiter to say:

By saying that this is an outdated concept you are alluding at it being somehow time-dependent. While the minimum demand on a grid can eventually evolve through time, it always exists, even if it is zero. Baseload is a concept bound to the concept of Electric Grid.

And the glaring mismatch between the claim being attacked and the argument introduced to attack it only reinforces the point about outdated concepts about the provision of baseload. The fact that the minimum amount required over a period has a distinctive name obviously does not imply that it requires a distinctive kind of plant to put specific "baseload" electrons onto the grid.

It can, indeed, as easily imply things about demand management as supply management, and the things it implies about supply management may well be about dynamic throttling of deferrable power sources as about long term construction of 24/7 always on power plants.

The existence of the name implies existing or past institutions within the electricity generation industry, but institutions are always past-bound.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:30:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not say base load power plant. I just said base load. Your second quote is in conflict with Wikipedia:

Base load power plant - Wikipedia

Baseload (also base load, or baseload demand) is the minimum amount of power that a utility or distribution company must make available to its customers, or the amount of power required to meet minimum demands based on reasonable expectations of customer requirements. Baseload values typically vary from hour to hour in most commercial and industrial areas.

...so we can say at the least that there are differing interpretations of the term in English. (I note though that that quote is from a for-the-wide-public glossary article again titled base-load power plant, and the same glossary lacks any article on other loads; so I hazard to assume that Harris Group is imprecise there.) Portuguese is yet another thing. (I'm curious if there is a Mittellast equivalent in your language, or is it lumped together with peak load.)

Finally, as Bruce and Crazy Horse said, the issue is how you supply expected demand, not how you continue to supply it in the idealised form of the traditional way, e.g. a near-constant part and daily periodic part. (Where, as I indicated, the shutdowns of large baseload power plants already represent a deviation from the ideal that has parallels with grid operation in the new regime with high grid peneration intermittent generation.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:56:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Addledum:

1) Here is the graph showing the Grundlast - Mittellast - Spitzenlast concept from the German Wikipedia:

2) I find that while Mittellast (c. intermediate load) does seem to lack from English totally, there is a Wikipedia article titled Load following power plant:

A load following power plant is a power plant that adjusts its power output as demand for electricity fluctuates throughout the day. Load following plants are in between base load and peaking power plants in efficiency, speed of startup and shutdown, construction cost, cost of electricity and capacity factor.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 11:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
specializes in them.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 11:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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