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That's a pretty big area. Running into each other is pretty impressive.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:13:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure it should be relatively easy to calculate how regularly this should happen with ocean volumes and  subs distance of travel.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
quick back of envelope calculation gives a rough figure of one colision every 23,000 years per submarine.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 01:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What we need is the number of collision on any pair of submarines, considering the number of submarines of two navies in the patrol areas.

When you say 1/23000 yrs, that would be with one sub each ? or for one given sub with two subs per navy ? then it's 1-(1-1/23k)^4 for all four subs ?

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 03:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My question would be how many are actually patrolling in the same area? I assume the Russian ones are all in the relative safety of the arctic ocean.The US ones in the Pacific and Western Arctic. So the only ones that can reasonably run into each other would be the UK and French ones (possibly the Chinese and US in the pacific)wether you'd say  how many could collide would be down to how far the lengths of their patrols overlap, and so how many you'd actually have at sea at any one time.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 03:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the idea behind my 2+2 assumption (see other post in same thread with another calculation). 2 for each navies, on patrol zone + transit lanes, at any given time.

US boomers are all in the pacific now. russians are in the arctic along their own coastline. the chinese have only one 20-yrs old boomer, and there are so many us hk stalking it when it sets sails, that its position may be leaking to google placemarks near real time nowadays. This incident could only ever happen between france and uk in the present setup of strategic forces.

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 05:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well actually, they were not on patrol, much more likely in transit between home port and patrol zone (certain for Triomphant, likely for Vanguard).

Now the following computation:
average speed: 4knots = 4 nmi/hour ~ 7.5 km/hour
effective "collision" section = 20 meters (ship breadth, all @600m depth)
area combing speed: 0.15 sq km / hour, or over 3 sq km / day.

Total patrol area in the north atlantic + transit lanes = a few million sq km. Lets say there are constantly about 4 boomers in there (only boomers count, they dodge their own HK because they know where they are). That's two boomers of a different country for each boomer of first country (let's forget non existent russians, and assume boomers of one country are more or less boxed).

What is the average time between intercepts considering the entire fleet of 4 subs ? (we assume even if they detect the encounter, they don't deviate from current trajectory)

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 12:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
about 3x(3 sq km/day)/3e6 sq km = 3e-6 th part of the area is scanned each day by 3 subs, but there are 4 such combinations, so more like 1e-5/day. I assume subs change course randomly from day to day, and they can randomly go back to some place they've been a while earlier, so each day is an independent random experiment, subs collide if some combination of them do scan the same area.

I get to about 100 000 days on average between collisions, which is 273 years. Not such a large number, but still, it comes a bit early when such patrols have been going on since "only" 40 years. Now, of course a little bit of "lets veer just a little bit toward this weird noise so we get a clearer signal" might help a lot in bringing the numbers down (boomers are not supposed to do this, but you know, it gets so boring down there...)


Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Feb 17th, 2009 at 12:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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