Display:
The field of belief/skepticism is a minefield for ET. Is it worth exacerbating divisions between us on this topic, when there are so many others where we can hold constructive discussions?

There has been a great deal of play given to alleged direct or indirect censorship of belief/spiritual/metaphysical subjects. Yet no diary or comment has been directly censored, and accusations of indirect censorship boil down to pointing to responses made by users of a more skeptical frame of mind. Denying them the right to question or oppose "spiritual" points of view would amount to inverse censorship, which would, as you say elsewhere, indeed be "a paradox".

And how many "skeptical" diaries have been written? Who, among the less inclined to believe among us, has posted material likely to cause grave dissension? I refrain from writing on this, (though I have clear views grounded in my own experience and, indeed, suffering), because I'm aware that it's an utterly divisive subject. I think others steer clear for similar reasons - yet the noise about censorship runs one way and one way only.

There's also the manner that should be considered: I titled a diary "American Pie Fight", which appeared to be asking for trouble, but I really did think it was possible to bridge some gaps and reach better understanding between Europeans and Americans, and I wrote quite deliberately in hopes we'd find common ground. That may not be possible in the "spiritual/skeptical" frame, in which case it's probably an area that's better avoided.

Systemic failure? Take any similar group, and you would probably find a similar "belief gap". Few of us here find close confirmation of personal identity in ethnic or national roots - apparently the belief/disbelief mythology we find ourselves suited to is more radically necessary to our sense of ourselves.

For that reason, it probably can't be hashed out, argued over. What we need is to encapsulate it in pacified mode, that is, recognize the differences between us without hating each other for them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 19th, 2009 at 08:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All that is good, and thanks for replying at length.

However there is a human context to all the talk about energy, politics, finance etc. It is a context of perceptions. Unless we seek to understand those perceptions we cannot hope to change the ones that are different from the ones we all at ET seem to agree upon. i.e. the things that need to be changed to make a better society.

All the careful science and logic will not change entrenched perceptions unless they are communicated to wider audiences in 'their' terms. I don't say you are unaware of the problem of communication - you are a writer yourself - but 'spreading the word' is not just about being right.

About beliefs: the EU is secular. No mention of religion anywhere in the treaties. ET is rightly secular. And yet both the EU and ET are, to some extent, belief systems as perceived by citizens.

I don't hate anyone. I abhor violence. But it is hard to prevent carrots being seen as sticks due to different perceptions. And unless we can discuss those perceptions, I don't see a solution.

BTW As DoDo points out, there is an uncomfortable circle of recriminations about who said or did what first, and it reminds me of the intractable Israeli/Palestinan conflict. Let us offer each other an olive branch and try to move on. There are numerous projects on which we could collaborate if we can move forward beyond words.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:38:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
All the careful science and logic will not change entrenched perceptions unless they are communicated to wider audiences in 'their' terms.

How do you think this thread is helping ET communicate with a wider audience?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 19th, 2009 at 01:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is hard to prevent carrots being seen as sticks due to different perceptions.

Well... yes. But while you poked afew and Colman, melo got in the way, and in the end, he ended up doing just what was the subject of afew's prior intervention. For the future, worth to note: when you use carrots disguised as sticks that some will have to see as sticks disguised as carrots, third parties may get confused, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 19th, 2009 at 01:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
58 comments

Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
35 comments

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9
1 comment

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
9 comments

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

Recent Diaries
Sarkozy: Enemies Ahoy!
by afew - Feb 10
35 comments

Clipping the wings of a judge
by Migeru - Feb 10
58 comments

LQD: Unsustainable irrigation
by Melanchthon - Feb 9
1 comment

Hunger March wins PR battle
by DoDo - Feb 9
3 comments

Obama wins GOP Primaries (to date)
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 8
9 comments

Romania: protests change government
by DoDo - Feb 8
6 comments

Answers to the Renewable Energy Consultation
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 7

Bristol Pound
by ChrisCook - Feb 7
14 comments

The Imitation Of Germany
by afew - Feb 4
31 comments

Strange Fruit
by Frank Schnittger - Feb 4
14 comments

Murdoch - Outsourcing and Hubris
by ceebs - Feb 3
18 comments

Mismatch with the Natural Gas Market
by Luis de Sousa - Feb 3
22 comments

The Future of Economics
by ARGeezer - Feb 2
191 comments

Desert Island Discs - Helen's distortions
by Helen - Jan 31
48 comments

Gorila
by DoDo - Jan 29
14 comments

Rail News Blogging #7
by DoDo - Jan 29
15 comments

Obama's State Of The Union: LQD
by Crazy Horse - Jan 25
74 comments

Democracy Technology
by gmoke - Jan 24
1 comment

The Hydrogen dream
by Luis de Sousa - Jan 24
49 comments

ET Paris Meet-Up 2012 (2 UPDATE)
by afew - Jan 23
113 comments

More Diaries...
Occasional Series