the EU is indeed under very real threat, and the defenders are fighting an uphill battle, so the threat is not at all imaginary and rather all real - some of it legitimate (the sovereignists: while I disagree with them, at least they are making a fundamentally honest political point, even if their public arguments cannot always be described so kindly), some of it legitimate if devious (the UK ruling class trying to make the EU powerless while claiming to be improving it), some of it just misguided (the left working against EU political legitimacy and supporting the unfavorable economic status quo).

But you are obviously not aware of the various discussions with Chris and solveig on this, which basically amount to an ode to Norwegian rules, and a description of the EU as an evil bureaucracy trying to impose absurd rules to people that obviously know better. So they are sovereignists: again, a fully legitimate position, but not one that grants thm protection from facts when presented to them, as has been the case in the past (Mig and I have been called fanatics even as we dug up the proofs that they were writing falsehoods about the EU).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 03:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take this comment as an insult. You are not correct in what you say about the last thread you are referring to - where the 'facts' you consider to be decided, are, as far as I know, still open.

I shall say no more.

I pray for a good dose of wisdom to be sprinkled around this site.    

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 03:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's how your presentation often comes across to me as well: big nasty stupid EU bullying heroic wise little Norway. That might not be how you mean it to come across, but there you are.

It's as bad as Jérôme and his occasional outbursts of French nationalism.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 03:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am fully aware that what I say may be misinterpreted in this way - so I refrain from commenting, most of the time.  

 

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 04:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
my "occasional outbursts of French nationalism" are rather tempered by criticism of the same elsewhere. I don't think I've ever seen Norway described as anything other than the most perfect place ever, oppressed by the callous EU bureaucracy (I know you did not say "callous" any more thna you said "evil" - it sounded like both, to my naive ears) but fighting valiantly onwards.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 04:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway gets a lot right, and a lot wrong.

The fact that solveig has chosen to live in Scotland for the majority of her life is inconsistent with your caricature.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 04:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 03:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Solveig is well able to defend her position, and re-reading the thread once more reminds me she did so ably.

Jerome a Paris:

Mig and I have been called fanatics even as we dug up the proofs that they were writing falsehoods about the EU

If you care to re-read it yourself, neither you nor migeru proved anything of the kind.  The question about bank guarantees was undecided. Still is, for all I know. And the thread ended with you apologising for your aggression,and solveig in tears.

Solveig is a Norwegian who has lived in Scotland for many years. I think you caricature her position.

The EU a bureaucracy? Yes, of course, who could deny it? Evil? I don't recall that being said or even implied. As she points out, much of what the Norwegians already do you advocate yourself for the EU and more widely.

As for me, I certainly am no sovereigntist. The idea is laughable. I believe nation states are - shall we say - sub-optimal, and any agglomeration of nation states is sub-sub-optimal.

A post downthread sets out my position reasonably well on that. Since migeru recommended it, I guess it's not all bad.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 04:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And the thread ended with you apologising for your aggression, and solveig in tears.

Yes, I apologized because I care about the community, and don't like to see people feeling hurt, even if I may think that hurt is unjustified, and because I thought that it was a way to come back towards civility - and it worked. If you use that as an argument that she was right, and for points scoring gainst me, you profoundly mock my intent, and make me regret doing it.

Sad.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 at 04:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
A post downthread sets out my position reasonably well on that. Since migeru recommended it, I guess it's not all bad.
What kind of an argument is that?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2009 at 04:19:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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