What I found wasn't a spirituality versus rationality debate, or any kind of broader intellectual debate, but rather a few old wounds being reopened - where disagreements had become personalised - and where various nefarious motives where being imputed to others.
I appreciate that the disagreements had roots going back to earlier discussions - some before my time here - but that is the way of conflicts which remain unresolved - they remain troubling below the surface and occasionally flame to the surface again.
I think this is where we reach the boundaries of what is possible on a blog. Flame wars are easy because of the virtual distance; closure almost impossible, because reconciliation processes are as much physical, emotional, sensuous, and personal - as they are logical, rational and amenable to keyboard communication.
Once people get hurt in a personal sense there is almost no way back - other than at a meet-up with a trained facilitator perhaps. The tragedy lies in thinking closure is possible in a virtual world - we live in a kind of suspended animation on-line - reconciliation is mostly only possible in the real world.
Yes this can distract from cohesiveness, enthusiasm and energy channelled in constructive directions. It is particularly damaging if a lot of editorial time and energy (and enthusiasm) is sapped in the process.
However the refusal to let these conflicts go is also saying something else: people care, they want closure, and are upset they can't seem to find a way to create it.
Whilst you may see this site primarily in terms of your agenda, others see it in terms of theirs. European Tribune - Comments - Beyond ET?
But it's also, somehat mysteriously, attracted other people, who enjoy the mostly respectful atmosphere here, and bring other perspectives - and take advantage of the relaxed, uncensored context to explore aother avenues and, sometimes, yank a few chains. We all need reality checks, so that's not a bad thing, except when people actually get hurt. And words do hurt.
I don't think it is helpful to paint others as the anomaly, as the ones who don't get what this site is about, as the ones who take advantage of the relaxed atmosphere here, as the ones who create the hurt.
The point is they feel they own part of this site too. They have invested emotionally in it as well, and perhaps they feel they receive a lesser recognition for their contribution. notes from no w here
I attach my two cents to this. Jérôme wrote:
the most relevant distinction is still between insiders and outsiders, incrementalists vs revolutionaries, or "realists" vs idealists" (all different labels for the same thing: those inside the system, or benefitting from ot, who want to improve it, and those outside it, or abused by it, who want to get rid of it). ...it includes a core group that could loosely be called technocrats, people who value facts and science and critical thinking, and enjoy their "object" blogging.
...it includes a core group that could loosely be called technocrats, people who value facts and science and critical thinking, and enjoy their "object" blogging.
I don't think these category pairs are completely over-lapping. I don't even know if I am inside the system. I am an idealist revolutionary (;-)). I am probably also a technocrat, and probably part of Jérôme's "core group". And at least my object blogging seems widely enjoyed by the non-technocrat, non-science-ist, non-core-group people; who BTW can be both idealist and realist resp. incrementalist or revolutionary.
So I don't see these dualist characterisations as helpful at all. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
What is defined in some detail in the NUG is the manner in which such disagreements should be conducted and this is where we often seem to get our knickers in a twist, particularly with regard to the role of front pagers. As individuals front pagers are, of course, as entitled to become as engaged in arguments as anyone else and it is rare to see them actually use the ((ET Moderation TechnologyTM)) tag. However some members appear to feel the distinction becomes blurred when other members (who are also front pagers) become embroiled in an argument and appear to act collegially in relation to to a particular dispute without ever using their [ET Moderation TechnologyTM] tag or front pager powers.
This could be nothing more than a few people of like mind taking a similar view, and some front pagers appear to feel very aggrieved at any suggestion in might be otherwise. I personally have no difficulty with the Editorial Board (say) announcing that only serious articles with factual and evidence based arguments will be allowed on the front page, or that in future frivolous diaries (e.g. my own Notorious Polish Delinquent Driver Caught by Irish Police) will be confined to contributions to the open threads. These are valid editorial decisions, even if I disagree with them. But what is important in such instances is that Editorial policies are clearly stated and consistently applied.
What I am reading in some of the disputed comments is a sense that some people, at least, do not feel that editorial standards are being clearly enunciated and consistently applied. That some people are called on hurtful or ad hominem remarks, and that others are not. Perhaps front pagers are being held to a higher stand. Perhaps they should be held to a higher standard if they are seen as representing the leadership of the site. But what seems clear is that some people here feel that standards are being unfairly and inconsistently applied, and when this feeling persists you need a mechanism or a process to resolve it.
Ideally therefore, when disputes arise, and particularly when those disputes involve members who are also front pagers, you need a third party disputes resolution process - other respected members who are accepted as honest brokers and who are skilled in the process of identifying underlying issues, narrowing their scope, and ultimately, sometimes slowly, leading a process towards their resolution. I can think of at least one front pager who appears to me to have that skill set (and one other member) and that is only from those members I have met personally.
Perhaps as a pilot process, we might therefore set up a disputes resolution panel, made up of volunteers, and the parties to a dispute could see if there is at least one person on that panel who they could all accept as an honest broker. This process would have a number of potential benefits:
Should we instead accept that, no, FrontPagers will not be perceived as ordinary users and therefore have to behave as if they had the [ET Moderation Technology™] tag up by default?
Do we need a [This is not an editorial comment] tag instead? Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
This always seems most pronounced when there is major disagreement, and it is a tribute to the community that we have managed to go through Two or three major 'Discussions' without the site fragmenting.
If you are an editor you have to accept that some of your decisions will be taken badly, and accept that as long as you are acting consistently and fairly you will have to step back and take a deep breath when someone is calling you all sorts.
I don't think that the non-editorial tag will help, because even when you specifically say its not editorial, people will assume it is, or at least assume it is made in discussion with other editors. Whenever I have ended up in a vaguely editorial role I've always made it clear that if people want to think that im acting as part of a conspiracy, the only reply they will get from me is laughter. Taking it personally only causes you stress that really dosent help you after all. Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
There is a problem with managerial moderation getting confused with personal comments and positions.
That's partly the nature of the animal, but a more flexible approach might be less likely to be provocative, perhaps.
If the EU can make Vaclav Klaus president then anything is possible. ;)
It seems to me to be fundamentally unfair that voluntary front pagers can't have as much fun as anyone else here and be frivolous as the humour takes them. (Otherwise we might start have real difficulties persuading people to take on the onerous task in the first place).
However there does appear to be a view within the community that some front pagers occasionally let the side down, are quicker to to post negative or pejorative comments than many ordinary members, and that when editors do this, it reflects badly on the community as a whole. Whether it is valid to expect a higher standard of behaviour from frontpagers depends on how ET decides to define the role as a whole. It does seem to me, however, that at least some members expect a higher (or at least an equivalent) standard of behaviour from front pagers and feel they aren't always getting it.
However it seems to me that front pagers are quite a varied bunch, with many disparate talents, and that just because one is a brilliant intellectual doesn't automatically mean that they are particularly skilled at emotional empathy or encouraging someone with lesser linguistic skills. I'm not sure why Sven posted his diary, but perhaps he was intimating that social intercourse here (and much more so elsewhere) can sometimes take the form of an egotistical bear fight where the purpose is to destroy the weaker opponents arguments and that even Grizzlies have evolved mechanisms for mitigating the harm such fights/arguments can create.
Certainly I am aware of instances where members felt intimated when a number of perceived heavyweights started to take their perhaps tentative arguments apart and felt they had no alternatives other than fight or flight - put up some kind of argument, or admit humiliating defeat. It seems to me most damaging disputes occur when one party feels humiliated in some way. Perhaps they were objectively wrong in some sense, but to admit that publicly would be to risk humiliating scorn or sarcasm. Perhaps those fears were ill-founded. I have certainly sometimes made hasty or ill-considered comments and found myself having to row back when called on them. If your ego is tied in with your intellect, this can be a difficult process!
So to answer your question, a [This is not an editorial comment] tag might be useful if cumbersome. The question of whether front pagers should be held to some (difficult to define) higher standard is perhaps one that front pagers themselves might like to discuss if they haven't already done so. My suspicion is that it would be impossible to define such a standard clearly. Perhaps just a sense that a degree of prominence on the site also means that other members are more likely to feel intimidated and that understatement and emotional empathy might be useful tools at times.
Often front pagers have gotten into trouble when they were just trying to help some other member under pressure - and ended up in the firing line themselves. Sometimes you just can't win, at other times you may feel, on subsequent cool review, that your intervention might have been more skilful. Nearly always you get into trouble if you impute motives or make personalised observations to which someone takes offence. There is sometimes almost no rowing back from this. You may feel that some people are only waiting to be insulted so they can vent their righteous spleen.
That is why third party conflict resolution processes which depersonalise the process can be so valuable. However I have never seen them attempted over the internet, so I just don't know what the success rate would be. A lot depends on whether people actually want to resolve the problem. Without that basic goodwill, no process can succeed. But it seems to me that goodwill is one quality that is not lacking on ET. notes from no w here
There is precious little of that these days. Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
If only FPers do moderation actively when a conflict happens, isn't it inevitable that they will be seen as a party to the conflict, and accused of bias?
Echoes one of the main argument against humanitarian intervention: it cannot be helped that the intervener takes a side, contrary to the principle of state sovereignty and the equality of state sovereignty which is a fundamental tenet of the international system.
So I suppose, it takes a skilled diplomat to moderate well, and that one of the goals of the diplomatic community is to maintain the health and diversity of the system.
Interesting parallel, I just thought I'd share it. "It Can't Be Just About Us"--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire
- Jake If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.
perhaps one way forward would be if one's a front pager and moving into a moderator mode, that other FPers don't cluster and intercede (negatively) in concert. it's not perfect, because it imposes more self-restraint on FPers than the rest of us, but it would be more conducive ot egalitarianism i think.
if the cluster is positive, it has extra clout from being liked by FPers, so the opposite is also true.
one FPer in disagreement can never be perceived as bullying or groupthink, whereas when the cluster happens, it rapidly seems like overkill.
after all, if the post being reacted to really is drifting way out of line, and a FPer is as sure of his/her ground as befits the role, it shouldn't take more than one. two should be the equivalent of the guys in white coats 'coming to take me away', three should be banning level.
that way it's sparing, but truly effective, and would sidestep any risk of seeming like elite pressure, aka scrambling lieutenants.
it also seems counterproductive to keep linking to threads that are symbolic of supposed tragic import. if they really are that traumatic, let's learn from them and move on, rather than inviting folks to revisit them and reopen old wounds. why should new readers be led by the hand to the skeletons in the closet, if indeed they are? there's something a bit contradictory there perhaps?
i actually don't see it as a problem, because ET will always be a microcosm of the rest of reality, and we don't have perfect eternal harmony there, so why expect it here? whereas what harmony we create here can be also exported into meatworld...
what's wonderful is the high signal to noise ratio, and i hated slipping into becoming the latter.
so sorry folks...
still it's a very small storm in a huge teacup of ever-renewing, delicious brew, and making such a fuss about it seems a tad overdone. yes words can hurt, and some are hastier than others to let fly. mea culpa.
ET is great because of its variety, and even more for its balance, between heart attack permanent serious and goofy transitory pleasure.
perhaps some feel ET would be a more effective political tool if it were pruned back of its playful, personal side, and just focussed on entirely serious subjects, and perhaps they're right, and my intuition that the opposite is true, (ie that variety and unpredictability attract more readers/members, which will /could morph into something that achieved serious ends, by many means, some of which may appear lightweight and with less obvious socially transformative heft)....is Wrong.
in which case, i'd happily accept that as an invitation to move on, an 'uninvite', if that would help you get closer to the real agenda here, to positively change european society, and you think that disagreements that become flamewars distract and sap that. i'd understand and might do the same in your shoes. streamline da buggah! go furrrrther!
i don't like polemic, but i've been here since the beginning and i'm very fond of the place. going to british 'public' school in england has left me doubtless hypersensitive to bullying, and if i'm going to come hang out and learn and play here, then to remain silent when i see it (or think i see it) makes me feel complicit. it has after all been the worst thing about being european these last 100 years, feeling that evil of horrific proportions has dwelled here slyly, unconsciously woven into the camouflage of banal. still hypersensitivity to anything is unproductive...
sven doesn't need help defending himself, in retrospective, i should have kept my mouth shut, it was pretty minor, what tweaked me, and my spontaneous interjection just made things worse. duh...
but so many others have emailed me or told me in person over the years that they too felt the things i called out, it probably helped push my buttons to become spokesperson for them too, who'd given up and left, or had planed down their contributions to a minimum to avoid feeling trammeled and diminished by certain folks here.
stupid, i should let them be to fight for their own right not to allow others to do that, it's not my job to change ET, or even to criticise it. it certainly seems petty do do so, when it has been such a wonderful fountain of wisdom, fun and good energy for me these last years.
as all of you know whom i've 4'd to death!
thanks again, J, for birthing this multicoloured beast, and having the courage to keep reaching for goals for us that are always inspiring and relevant. thanks to all for the brilliant effort building this body of information and ongoing experiment in real-time communication. it has the vitality and potential for a wonderful future.
email me and i'll self ban, if i'm too incorrigibly counter-revolutionary. nary a bubble where he sank...
back to the sulphurous mud whence he emerged...
:)
~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
</drunken Colman>
Even in crack mode.
(There is a radical difference between mediation and arbitration. A mediator just explores areas of difference and common ground and tries to guide the disputants to a common position - but ultimate has no say in how the process unwinds - that is up to the disputants. The mediator doesn't "own" the dispute and can ultimately do no more than make suggestions. An arbitrator (by prior agreement) hears both sides, and then issues an authoritative ruling - which is then not subject to further negotiation. I am not suggesting arbitration is appropriate here - and a mediator shouldn't become a "player" in the dispute in question and should keep their personal views on the matter to themselves.) notes from no w here
(I am familiar with the difference between mediators and arbitrators - I'm a half-trained mediator and Sam is a fully trained one. Note to self: finish course at some stage this year!)
I was thus apprehensive about Jerome's apparent attempt to define some as perhaps being beyond the pale of what ET is truly about, and which could become a precursor to them being asked to consider curbing their contributions or taking their talents elsewhere.
You mistake my intent. I'm not worried about differences - I'm worried about differences becoming irreconciliable - or some of us making them so. I noted my positions/preferences/attitudes notto say they are better, but just to note what they are, and acknowledge (some of) the different views of others, and to some extent, express wonderment that they are here - and also the fear that this could lead to conflict. This is not an encouragement to push other opinions away, just a request that these differences be accepted and not a cause for damage to one another. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
I agree with your statement (that many here have echoed) about differences being good, positive and a learning opportunity, and share your concerns of what can happen when those difference turn sour for some reason - some of which I have tried to analyse above.
Conflict is endemic in all organisations - the more dynamic the organisation, often the more virile the conflict. However there are methods and processes for channelling that conflict in more creative and less damaging ways, and that is the discussion I am attempting to foster.
This isn't intended as a critique of frontpagers - I would never criticise people doing a job I am not prepared to do my self. What I did do - for context - was relay some of the criticisms I have read and heard, and which appear to lie behind some of the animus displayed earlier.
I don't have a view on whether they are justified or not, because I wasn't party to many of the discussions and don't know a lot of the context. I would merely note that the animus appears to be there, is real, and thus, in an ideal world, is a reality we should try to deal with in a positive and constructive way (off-line) between the parties concerned.
Some have expressed the view that their enjoyment of and participation on the site has been effected by these unresolved tensions. That alone should be a signal that we should try to act. But ultimately its your call. notes from no w here
we should try to deal with in a positive and constructive way (off-line)
tried....stalled, then rebuffed... ~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
It shouldn't be cause for wonderment if you acknowledge that our divides on different issues aren't along the same fronts. Everyone joined afer fiding some overlap with some of the existing users; and just two steps are enough for a new member to join with completely different views from yours. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I don't think these category pairs are completely over-lapping. I don't even know if I am inside the system. I am an idealist revolutionary (;-)). I am probably also a technocrat, and probably part of Jérôme's "core group". And at least my object blogging seems widely enjoyed by the non-technocrat, non-science-ist, non-core-group people; who BTW can be both idealist and realist resp. incrementalist or revolutionary. So I don't see these dualist characterisations as helpful at all.
So I don't see these dualist characterisations as helpful at all.
There are two kinds of people: those that accept dualist characterisations, and those that don't! ;)
Snark aside, my point was not to split people, but to note some of the issues that do divide us (not necessarily with the same people in the two groups each time, far from it) - and the need to avoid wasting our energy on amking these differences bigger than they are. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes