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I think people stopped - for a while, temporarily, and in specific instances - seeing the other posters here as people and started treating them as personifications of arguments and beliefs. Usually ones they really really really didn't like much.

All of the mad threads seemed to have this in common. Instead of specific posters we suddenly 'That person who represents this evil thing, and therefore...'

This is spot on, from what I can glean.  

Moreover, people have not just been treated as personifications of arguments and beliefs, but somewhat confined to roles.  X is the new age person, X is the anarchist, X is the intolerant atheist, X is the nationalist, X is the Atlanticist, X is the troublemaker, X is the clown, X is the curmudgeon, X is the diva...   It's probably quite natural and not meant to be malicious.  But this is real life, not a novel or play, and no one consistently represents one idea or fills one role.   Especially here at ET where people are constantly having their horizons expanded and being asked to prove the credibility of their assertions and to step out of their comfort zones.

Many of the recent tiffs make no sense to many of us; the responses seems so unnecessarily disproportionate or overly sensitive and feel distracting.  Perhaps, rather than taking comments in their immediate and logical context, we may be interpreting them according to our preconceived ideas about the person(s) making them or our expectations of their ulterior motivations.  

This is a pet peeve of mine because 1) fault is just as likely to lie with the person's preconceived ideas as with the person whose comments are being judged, 2) no one acts consistently over time: our personal mood, new information, or comfort with our situation can determine our motives just as much as any ideology or personality trait and 3) even if the preconceived ideas are correct, the comments may still have a good point, which will be missed because our focus was elsewhere, looking for the fault.

And if your are looking for something, you might think you've found it when it isn't even there.  It's called a bias.  We notice it when journalists write about France or Russia and it drives us berserk.  We notice it when fundamentalists explain events which have quite logical causes as conspiracies or divine plans and it makes us exasperated.  But ... are we willing to acknowledge that we too sometimes fall into this intellectual laziness?  I mean, we're a pretty freaking intelligent group here.  We'll admit to all kinds of vices and lurid activities and shortcomings.  But not bias.  Not intellectual shortcuts!  That's ET's version of the Holy Grail.  Which may be why we seem to be dancing around a problem while not solving it or communicating past each other.  Maybe that's the elephant in the room.  Even we are capable of bias - even against one another.  Even we are susceptible to allowing our emotions and agendas trump our critical reasoning abilities.  Even we might invent a narrative about ET to counter the annoying phenomenon of stuff not always making sense in a way that conforms to our worldview.  Can it be possible?  And can we graciously acknowledge its possibility without taking a sever hit to our pride?

Look, we might be exceptional, but we are not THAT exceptional.  Of course we do these things.  This is a blog, a medium that hardly encourages reflection and patience and with-holding of judgement!  We are not robots.  We are not omniscient.  We are humans with infinite demands on our lives.  We are not Dostoevsky characters who are good ideas or bad ideas walking about on 2 legs.  And let me remind you, that those Dostoevsky characters were like masters of the flame war.  

...

OMG maybe this IS a Dostoevsky novel!!!  Think about it.  You have the believers and the non-believers.  The hedonists and the stoics.  The progressive reformers and the commie anarchists.  The nobility and the riff-raff.  The ruined women and the unrequited love.  The hysterics and the philosophical debates.  The plots, the plans, the people who show up outta nowhere and ruffle things up.  The manifestos.  No murders so far.  But how many of us belong to that "people with names no one can spell" fb group?  And wasn't Twank just suggesting a fancy-dress ball?  Uh huh...

Well, either this 1) is a Dostoevsky novel, which means we're all not real people and someone is going to get killed and there's nothing any of us can do about it or 2) is not a Dostoevsky novel, which means we're each more than characters who personify an idea or archetype and so it would behoove us to keep that in mind was we do this blogging thing.  And also no one has to get killed.  

Which is good.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As usual, art from the keyboard.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whew.  I was pretty sure that comment was going to stoke the flames.  Now if anyone cries foul I'll just take the "art" defense. :)


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That deserves a 5 for being humane, empathic,  understanding and insightful.  Actually, it is very short for the profound content and vision you offer us.  Thank you!

Your personal combination of qualities/talents and you/poemless don't need a defense.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 02:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Odds and Ends: ET as Dostoyevski Novel edition?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I be Fyodor Karamazov?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm fed up with being Kalashnikov

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Joke!


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that triggered some memories

<counting until ceebs gets stuck in>

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you want me to be the butt of your jokes?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh no, not another round of snark.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've got you in my sights

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this one might cause me to rifle through the dictionary.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Put it all in a bullet list

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a dum-dum comment


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are attempting to muzzle me?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
don't know about you but i'm drawing a blank.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm over a barrel myself...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:30:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a rare sight.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
see I had run out.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 01:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I be the Idiot?

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 07:09:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poemless's Law (also known as Poemless's Rule of Dostoyevskian Likeness) is an adage formulated by poemless in 2009. The law states: "As ET grows older, the probability of its members resembling characters from a novel by Feodor Dostoyevsky approaches one."

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky
by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you sure it isn't Kafka?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I were sure, it's couldn't be Kafkaesque, now could it?

:D

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky

by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 06:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, yeah, but where is the cross-post of your comment as an Odds and Ends?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the best thing would be for this madness to spawn yet another meta diary?

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky
by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 06:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least we'd have one of literary quality.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 06:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point....

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky
by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 06:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though still quite unaware what the fuzz is about, I can still recognise a good comment. But this part puzzles me:

poemless:

X is the new age person, X is the anarchist, X is the intolerant atheist, X is the nationalist, X is the Atlanticist, X is the troublemaker, X is the clown, X is the curmudgeon, X is the diva...

Why do you bad-mouth X? Sure it is true that X has not made much noice since becoming one of the early members, but that does not (in my book (not Dostoevsky)) make it ok to scapegoat. Just because someone is not around all the time (or ever writes a comment) does not constitute a licens for using that person as an all-encompassing representation.

X for president!

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh my god, Swedish - what did you do with the real member no.60?!!!!

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky
by poemless on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More worryingly - where's Number 6?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow - somebody else remembers that series. I had completely forgotten about it, only to have the opening sequence spontaneously come to mind when hearing about the U.S. killing the latest Al-Qaeda Number 3.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 12:58:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps we should get In Wales to go to Portmeirion to check if nowadays it's full of Imams?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 05:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I went to Pormeirion in 2005... Lots of tourists but no Imams :-)

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 05:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The commie anarchist in me had to strike.

And you thought no one had to be killed... Bah!

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
X for president!

He should win as well, everyone votes X in the UK.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Feb 25th, 2009 at 05:13:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This comment deserves to be posted above the UGs to express the attitude we need to aspire to, because it is as complete a view as I have seen and has wide agreement.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 03:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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