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I'm pretty sure our bone of contention starts and ends here:

"Besides there is the small issue that owing a company is not quite the same kind of decision entitlement as working for one (me)

Why not? (you)

Simplifying, the idea of the nanny having a say in how I run my house strikes me as a bit odd :) I know that's not at all what you propose, but it's a matter of principle nonetheless: to me, the right to own property and the right to speak freely go before everything else, and any kind of adjustment you would bring to the society, these two should not be trespassed, under no circumstance. There is no capitalism and no freedom without these two. When I built a house, bought a car, or set up a company, I am not ready to and I think it fundamentally wrong to  discuss the issue of ownership and decision making. I don't even think this is a matter of rightwing vs leftwing, but of a fundamental human right as important as any other.
Beyond appropriate work conditions and equitable pay, it is for the individual and the state to assume - be it social security, medical insurance, retirement insurance or pension system, and so on. The state can of course levy taxes, exactly when and how it sees fit, and regulate the job market and the economical environment as it pleases, as long as it doesn't infringe on my own fundamental rights as an individual(exceptional situations aside).
Social inequalities should be tackled, but not serve as a motivation to step upon fundamental rights, and this applies to any such right.
Workforce can under no circumstance be considered as a merchandise, but enterprises are hardly meant as social care entities, and regulation should be limited to work conditions and the job market - the rest is for the society to provide (and we're all part of the society, so this is not a matter of protecting the property of the rich and powerful, but dealing with it without stepping upon principles).
This is why I'd be ready to accept any kind of remuneration cap, remuneration incentive regulation, particularly via fiscal tools, in short, any kind of sharing into the profit. The issue of ownership and decision making though is a whole different thing.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 at 03:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure our bone of contention starts and ends here:

I think that's an astute observation, even if I disagree with you on whether it's a left-right issue.

But the way I see it, nobody forces companies to be publicly traded and benefit from limited liability. If the companies' owners think that the demands that society places upon them in return for these privileges are too onerous, they are perfectly free to withdraw the company from the Exchange, as provided for by the applicable rules.

More generally, I don't think that property scales. I have nothing against the corner-store owner with two employees deciding how he wants to run his business - he doesn't have notably more bargaining power than his employees do individually. But when a company spans an entire country and employs hundreds of people... then it becomes a political entity, as much as a commercial one. And then different rules apply. Or ought to apply.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 at 03:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the key point is that at that point a large company is no longer private property. It's effectively a mini-state in its own right, directly affecting the welfare of hundreds if not thousands (or millions...) of people.

It's no longer purely a private concern. The mythology that it should be a private concern, irrespective of social and political influence, is one of the flawed neo-feudal cornerstones of the rightwing edifice.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 at 04:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if even rightwingers still claim that, regarding multinationals and other giant companies. That's a category in itself, and I wonder if anti monopoly regulation should not go as far as block the new wave of fusions we see today, and in general stop a company not only from going monopolistic, but from reaching a certain size.
The only possible counter argument would be, I think, not about "private concern" or right to property, but about economies of scale and the benefits this brings to the society. This is the only possible use for mammoth corporations. Besides that, all strategical corps' should be state owned, and the rest, dismantled.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Mar 17th, 2009 at 09:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if even rightwingers still claim that, regarding multinationals and other giant companies.

Yes. Unfortunately, they do.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go take a shower.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 at 06:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well. I always thought healthcare should not be subject to market conditions. It remains that even from a rightwing point of view, monopolies and multinationals are an obvious obstacle to healthy competition. I mean, either you're a freemarketeer, or you're not. OTOH there are many "rights", some of which are not really conservative, and others which are not freemarket obsesssed. As an aside, I really think terms like left and right are completely obsolete these days - as are communism, humanism and so on.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 at 04:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It remains that even from a rightwing point of view, monopolies and multinationals are an obvious obstacle to healthy competition. I mean, either you're a freemarketeer, or you're not.

I would think so too. But apparently I'm wrong, at least according to several people I know whose credentials as "right-wingers" I have no reason to doubt (their sanity, yes, but not their political leanings).

There exists an unfortunately influential ideology in some right-wing circles that says that regulation of transnational companies is a greater imposition on personal liberty than permitting these transnational companies to run wild. The same doctrine also states that the "free" in "free market" means "free from government intervention," but does not say anything about freedom from exercise of monopoly power (the Austrian school of thought [I use the term loosely] even deny that monopolies can exercise power).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 at 05:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's less a question of power though, as is of competition. A monopoly (or a couple of multinationals ruling unchallenged) means that there simply is no free-market worthy of the name. When Microsoft pushes out all competition in operating system then office software market by OTC agreements with PC producers, innovation suffers, prices go up, new incomers have no chance and so on - the well known chain of effects of a monopoly. That is no free market anymore, and this is not a theoretical statement, and even less a socialist one. I find mind-boggling the idea that anyone, no matter the political colour, can see this differently.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 at 04:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"the same doctrine also states that the "free" in "free market" means "free from government intervention"

I wonder if the circles circulating this doctrine would exist elsewhere than the United States. Due to many factors, the idea that the state is "bad" in principle is unfortunately almost cosubstantial with the US.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Mar 20th, 2009 at 04:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ValentinD:
I know that's not at all what you propose, but it's a matter of principle nonetheless: to me, the right to own property and the right to speak freely go before everything else, and any kind of adjustment you would bring to the society, these two should not be trespassed, under no circumstance.

I agree that we should have the right to exclusive occupation of land.

But IMHO land is a Commons to which no-one has absolute rights of ownership and those exercising this privilege of exclusive occupation should compensate those they exclude ie the rest of Society.

So I agree with the principle that taxes should be levied on privilege, not people, and therefore advocate a tax on land rental values or "Location benefit levy"

Other privileges, such as exclusive use of non-renewables, or the privilege of limitation of liability, should also be taxed, and taxes on profits and earned income should be abolished.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 at 09:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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