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and they disappeared/were stolen overnight.

No, they'd been stolen over the previous 30 years. It's like one of those times when a pop star finds his accountant has been living the high life syphoning off their earnings for the whole of their career. The fact that we've got to look at the books now and found there's money missing  dosn't mean it all went missing today. (Unless it's Scrodingers bank account)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 01:50:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know of several cases like this. It is just too easy when you have a client who doesn't have a clue. Especially when, from the accountant's point of view, so much of the income they are dealing with is 'frittered away'. "Why not fritter it away on me,?" they think.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 02:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Power corrupts - accountancy corrupts absolutely.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 04:09:23 PM EST
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Well im sure they just think they don't have to account for their actions.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 05:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Galbraith argues in The Great Crash that embezzlement actually creates money: The embezzler has money, and the victim thinks that he has money. And if you think that you have money, then you actually have got money... just as long as you don't try to use that money. He calls this duplicated money (that the embezzler has but the victim doesn't yet realise that he's lost) "the Bezzle."

He also notes that the bezzle is inherently pro-cyclical: In good times, people don't actually need their money, so they don't check as often that they still have their money, so it becomes easier to embezzle them, and the bezzle grows. As soon as trouble starts, people begin to take a hard look at their balance sheets... and the bezzle evaporates.

I think much of the money being destroyed right now is the bezzle getting smaller. So it was stolen over the last thirty years. But it's disappearing overnight.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 05:16:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
I think much of the money being destroyed right now is the bezzle getting smaller. So it was stolen over the last thirty years. But it's disappearing overnight.
Especially over the past 10 years, with securitisation, banks have created money (by loaning it out) well in excess of the amounts consistent with Central Banks' monetary policies. I call this counterfeit money but you can call it the Bezzle. As we know, in 2006 the Fed discontinued the "M3 money supply" statistical series, presumably to hide the size of the bezzle.

The Bezzle was spread around the economy and now, when it disappears, everyone takes a hit, not only the money forgers.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 04:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stolen-or never existed.

In theory, I've "lost" tens of thousands of pounds in the last year on the value of my home. But that "money" was the unearned result of the property bubble.

It would have been useful if I'd wanted to secure debt against it, I suppose.  But did it ever exist in any really meaningful way? If I'd wanted to move home, I would have needed every scrap of my unearned equity to buy the next house, because they'd all gone up by the same crazy amount.  There was no way my "wealth" was going to translate into spending money, short of going to live in a tent.

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 05:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you could have rented instead. That would have been the way to realise the bubble windfall. And push the overvalued asset on some other sucker, of course...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 05:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a perfect market, possibly, if I'd guessed the exact moment to get out and get back in again.

In fact, however, I'd have to pay tax on the income from the released and reinvested capital, while paying my rent out of after tax income, which would be a year-on-year loss for the period I was out of the housing market.

And that assumes a "normal" rate of return on my investment.  With interest rates of 0.5% I would be out-of-pocket by most of the rent each month.

And I might even have invested the capital in equities.  Gulp.

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 06:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess it depends on how much you think your house is overvalued. If you would have a € 1000/month rent on the rental market, and you think your house is overvalued by € 100000, then it would make sense as long as the housing market would correct itself in less than eight years, even if you just took the money and put it in the Bank of Serta. Three years if you were paying 60 % income tax on the realised gain. Assuming, of course, that you were right about the true value of the house, and neglecting the costs of moving, and all the other simplifications. So call it two years, to be on the safe side - if you could predict the crash to within one year (plus/minus one gives two years), you could have cashed out.

Assuming, of course, that you want to treat your home as an object of speculation. Me, personally, I wouldn't want to do that, but then again, I don't particularly want to own a house in the first place...

But in any event, equity in your house isn't money - it only becomes money when you use it to collateralise a loan.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 06:30:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in any event, equity in your house isn't money - it only becomes money when you use it to collateralise a loan.

I think that was my point in the first place  :)

However, I'd been predicting the housing crash for at least four years, so I think we could agree that my punditry skills aren't quite tight enough to speculate with the roof over my children's heads.  ;)

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 06:55:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if you'd have promised them ice cream, im sure they would have adjusted to sleeping under a hedge for a year. ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 07:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you kidding?  You should have seen my daughter's face when I admitted I couldn't be sure her mobile phone would work on holiday this summer...

Well, maybe a hedge with a charging point and wifi.  Or double chocolate ice cream.

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 07:28:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've a friend who lives on the side of a hill in a broken down bus, running everything from solar panels. so it can be done.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 07:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kids today are spoiled rotten.

When I was a kid we had to walk across the house to answer the telephone.  

Barefoot.

In the snow.

Uphill, both ways.

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 10:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True.

Well, presumably it would have been monetised by selling it, because the other dude would have had to take out a mortgage on the full value (unless he had some cash stashed aside for some reason) :-P

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 08:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Over the last 12 months gold dropped off its peak by around 25% and is now almost up to the level it was at a year ago - and it seems to be climbing.

Obviously that's not as profitable as a building society account, especially one of the higher paying ones, but it's more secure than equities.

It's probably one of the ironies of the situation that over the last year a basic ISA will have been the most profitable of all possible investment vehicles.

Some hedge funds will have done better, as usual, but others will have done worse.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 06:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, one of my neighbors was a realtor/estate agent.  She sold her house at the top of the market and made a killing, so to speak.  Her profit was real unless she turned around and bought another ridiculously expensive house. If she were smart she would have rented her next house or used the money to pay cash for a place where prices were more reasonable.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Mar 8th, 2009 at 09:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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