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I'm not sure we should take Scandinavia as a whole, you have there four countries, ressembling in certain cultural, social and economical aspects, and differing in others. I'm not sure there is much similarity between Norway and Finland. Let alone that one can hardly apply nordic solutions to southern people. Peoples are not made up of robots, people are different, cultures are different and should be respected as such, and the political systems and solutions issued from those cultures along with them.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat May 23rd, 2009 at 12:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that is not what I said. I said that it proves that universal flat-rate pensions at a respectable rate does not of necessity break your economy.

Now, if you want to argue that it would break the French economy, due to some peculiarity in the French system (or culture) that creates conflicts not present in Scandinavian countries, then I'll leave you to hash that out with Jerome and Cyrille, because I don't know enough about France to pass (informed) comment.

But that is not the case you were making.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 23rd, 2009 at 03:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I said that the cases in discussion are too little to count. This shows at the least that I'm not totally opposed to the idea, although one might wonder as to the incentive people would have to work and provide for their own subsistence and the society as a whole. On the other hand I don't feel like abandoning the principle of the proportional pension - either that, or the optional private one in the conditions I mentioned before. There can be people that can deserve a bigger pension than the state level and I don't feel like denying them the right.
Finally there's the question of impossibly big pensions - or salaries, or bonuses. Can a human person be in a position to need five-million a year pension ? Is it ok to tax that at 90% ?  I couldn't say, right now.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat May 23rd, 2009 at 05:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately my last question isn't even posed as long as there are such things as tax havens and no actual political will to suppress them, even as this fuels suspicions of connivence of politicians and financiers.
They will provoke people into revolting at some point, and justifiedly so.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat May 23rd, 2009 at 05:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
one might wonder as to the incentive people would have to work and provide for their own subsistence and the society as a whole.

One might, indeed.

Until, that is, one remembers that in order to cash in on a pension, people have to actually survive to retirement age.

There can be people that can deserve a bigger pension than the state level and I don't feel like denying them the right.

If people wish to save more for their retirement, nothing prevents them from buying German sovereign debt (what they should not be entitled to is a fifty percent tax break for doing so, but that's another story...).

If they buy anything more risky than that, however, they should not come crying for a handout when it blows up in their face.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 23rd, 2009 at 07:03:14 PM EST
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