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Even if that were not the case, air travel over short distances is not otrageously expensive. And who says the bill for the air fare can't also be sent to your hospital. If it's still cheaper and with no waiting times, it's in everyones best interest.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon May 25th, 2009 at 09:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that your local, friendly hospital has to repair that hip operation, if an underpaid and overworked Polish doctor (who incidentally does not share your native language, and therefore has a hard time communicating with you unless you speak decent English - which is another class marker, even in countries where English is the native language...) who is given substandard equipment botches the operation and leaves you with a bad hip.

With health care, you get what you pay for, in the sense that it cannot be cheap and (consistently) good. It can be expensive and bad, of course, but that's true for everything...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon May 25th, 2009 at 01:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's still cheaper and with no waiting times, it's in everyones best interest.
And what about the local Poles who need treatment? Why should their doctor treat foreign Swedish tourists instead of them?

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Mon May 25th, 2009 at 08:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, because the EU protects the free movement of citizens...

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 04:02:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Freedom of movement does not imply a right to elective surgery, though. The argument is that Swedes who don't want to wait their turn in Sweden can jump the queue in Poland. At a minimum, I would suggest that elective (as opposed to emergency) surgery in public clinics should require residency.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 04:54:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that Swedish tourists get treated will not in any way reduce the treatment local Poles will recieve. They will pay for themselves, remember?

What's happening is that certain industries move to where they have an absolute advantage. To make it perfectly clear: if foreigners start going to Poland it will increase the budgets of the Polish healthcare system to compensate for the increased load, ie more doctors and nurses can be hired. It might even increase the quality of the local care as it is likely that the Poles can demand higher payment from Swedes than from Poles, and it will still be cheaper overall.

In the long run it won't work like that of course, as Polish wages will catch up with those in Sweden, but then in the long run we are all dead.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 07:10:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And in the short run it doesn't work like that either, since it takes about 10 years to fully train a medical doctor from scratch, and many years to plan and build new hospitals etc.

In the meantime, a single doctor has only so many hours in the day and if he spends it with one patient, then another patient must wait. Unless of course he doesn't have a full schedule. Are you suggesting that Polish doctors are underworked?

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 07:50:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
To make it perfectly clear: if foreigners start going to Poland it will increase the budgets of the Polish healthcare system to compensate for the increased load, ie more doctors and nurses can be hired.

It's just as likely that the Polish healthcare system will keep the extra cash.

Increase in income only translates to increase in investment if rentiers/governments aren't greedy and stupid, there's someone capable and competent to make the strategic decision, and there's a reasonable chance the change will be lasting enough to make it worth doing, and that there's a body of out of work doctors immediately available - or at least hire-able from abroad.

If any of those are marginal, it won't happen.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 07:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that, if Poland starts billing Sweden for all that treatment there will be even less money left to fund the Swedish system. So the situation is unstable against a full-scale migration of patients and cash from Sweden to Poland, to the point when unemployed Swedish doctors look for work in Poland where they can treat the Swedish patients.

Meantime, nothing guarantees Poles benefit from this situation.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you are ignoring the dynamic at work. So money is transfered out of the Swedish health care system. What's the big deal? The important thing is that patients get good care, not if it's from a Swedish or Polish or public or private hospital.

If lots of people don't want to go to a certain hospital it will lose money. Problem? Nope. It will lose money for a good reason then, because it's not delivering what patients want, and it'll have to adapt or downsize. This is a good thing as it will force inefficient hospitals to work better. It's kind of what competition is all about: forcing inefficient facilities to become more efficient, or lose their customers.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
De-funding the weakest schools is something that is being tried in the US and will (preductably) not lead to better education for all but to an exacerbation of inequalities in education. In countries that don't have a commitment to uniformly good public education you have "postcode lotteries" or strong pressures for families to move close to "good" schools, condemning people without the ability to move to substandard education.

Your model would condemn an underclass to substandard health care by abandoning the commitment to uniformly good public health provision.

And by "uniformly good" I don't mean that everything should be the same, but that everyone should have access to a local facility of a certain minimum standard.

You reason as if health care were a consumer good, or a lifestyle service - no different from hairdressers...

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Talking about schools we have that thing happening in Sweden. Because of the utter mismanagement of our public school system during the last few decades, parents have been taking their kids out of public schools and putting them into private (publicly-financed) schools. This in turn is forcing the public schools to become better, or go under. This is a good thing, not a bad. Hospitals and schools aren't the important thing, patients and pupils are, and they're voting with their feet.

Also, observe that it's not just the kids who're put into private schools who become better off, but the ones who stay in the improving public schools are also better off.

Personally I went to public schools. One was horrible, one was semi-good, and one was excellent.

In the best of worlds (ie Finland) we would only have public schools, and they would all be great. But just like when it comes to our healthcare system, such an outcome is impossible for political reasons, and this is the second best alternative.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private schools engage in cream skimming. Whether that gives better results for the public schools is decidedly questionable.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cream skimming?

At least in our system, each pupil has a check, kind of. This check is given to the school of the pupils choice. There's no other mode of financing the schools.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:24:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Private schools can expel or refuse to admit students who have behavioural issues and/or academically challenged. Public schools can't.

I don't know what you call that, but I call it cream skimming.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:31:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They can't in Sweden.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:39:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh? Then what's the difference between a private and a public school?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Public schools are run and owned by the local authority ("kommun") while private schools ("friskolor") are run and owned by private interests, often the teachers and or the principal.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and of course that creates another housing bubble with rising prices round the prestigious schools.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. We abolished the system of kids going to school in the closest school some years ago. Now those who have the highest grades go to their schools of choice. That only applies to lycée (when you're 16-18), but anyway...

And really... the best school I went to was when I was 16-18. It was an inner city school with great reputation, long history, and so on. So was the most horrible school I went to, when I was 7-11 years old. And the semi-good one, when I was 12-15.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hospitals involve very high sunk costs, and tolerably high idling costs. It is not obvious that the gains from competition are sufficient to offset these costs (not that it's entirely obvious that there would be gains from competition at all, for that matter...).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough, but I don't think we should ship of the emergency rooms and proton cannons to Poland. The stuff you'd do over there would likely be non-emergency stuff which didn't have very high capital costs. I guess.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That depends rather heavily on how you structure the incentives. Details are hellishly important on issues like this (but then, they always are).

My fear is that the people who make the rules will be from the part of the system that think in terms of international trade, rather than the parts of the system that think in terms of health care quality and social policy. Because, on the record, the international trade types seem to neither know nor care when their ideology imposes some regulation that is not technology- or public/private neutral.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm amused by how you've become a fan of absolute advantage.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that was the only reasonable thing to think after that discussion we had (also in a thread about Karahnjukar actually).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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