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I have a dilemma with the burka - on the one side I belive a woman should be able to decide what she wants to wear, if she really wants to wear a burka fine with me.

But there is also the integration - how do you integrate these women into our society. In my opinion integration needs communications, but how to you communicate with a woman in a burka. I for one could not, being hearing impaired I would not be able to understand her - I need to see the mimik and the lipmovement to understand people.

So I would say, in privat situations let them wear the burka if they want to - but in social situations, at work, maybe there have to be other solutions.

I see also a dilemma for western countries, they are continuesly critised for not integrating other cultures, but how to you integrate a culture if you can not really communicate with these people.

I just don't know and don't have an answer for this situation and I think it is good that it is being discussed.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 01:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that boils down pretty much to my own stance as well - and it connects to the discussion above with "dress code". The hardest one for me is the situation on the work floor - personally I'm not too keen on setting up specific (discriminatory) rules, but there do exist certain kinds of work cultures - cue in the "code" how to dress.

The Netherlands already has gone through various cycles of this discussion the past years, starting in 2005.  Geert Wilders (of course) then proposed a full ban for burqas all the time, including public spaces such as streets, public transport, etc etc. Although it was first thought not feasible by law, then Integration minister Rita Verdonk noted in 2006 that a public burqa ban should be possible. However, the cabinet next fell to pieces and nothing so drastic has happened.

Notably the CDA and Labour - the two main parties in the current cabinet -  have since then shifted their stance, calling instead for a general ban of any type of face covering (also hoodies) for schools and public functions. According to the present cabinet, specifically banning a burqa/niqab does not agree to  conventions, including the Dutch constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.  

I believe the general ban is now in effect. From the top of my head is wearing a burqa prohibited by most Dutch universities. While I can see (and generally agree to) the practicalities for regulations in schools and public functions, the current cabinet has also urged public transport companies to adopt face covering regulations, which does leave a foul taste in my mouth.

Of course the Netherlands wouldn't be the Netherlands if the disccusion didn't spawn a new art form by popular cartoonist Peter de Wit - the Burka Babes:


This one makes fun of Wilders "Fitna" movie:
1:JIHAD!!! You're a traitor!!
2:I thought the movie was alright. I had expected more of Geert

by Nomad on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 06:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What you describe seems to fit Colman's analysis:

first you decide that you want to ban the burqa/hijab because it's indecent and you want to assert the state's power over a minority (keeping them economically isolated in crappy suburbs with aggressive policing not being sufficient to garner votes, apparently) [Geert Wilders] and then you look for justifications for banning it [shifting stance to banning any type of face covering].


Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 09:18:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Geert Wilders still insist on specifically banning burqas everywhere - including the streets. He is not interested in anything else, and calls the other parties "cowards" for turning it into a general, more practical ban. An element in the discussion came from numerous incidents of hooded people mugging tram and bus drivers. Then there was a student who insisted on doing her university exams wearing a burqa - in a time when cheating by using sms messages was peaking.

There's simply more context to the general ban than just Colman's analysis.

Secondly, adopting a general ban is not un-clever in the face of Wilders growing popularity: it shows Wilders again for what he is - a totalitarian who discriminates against anything that has to do with Islam.

by Nomad on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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