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afew: You may consider it a quibble , but that sentence says the burqa is not welcome: the words apply to the item of dress, not the person wearing it.

i did note that he was talking about the burqa itself.  and it is not a quibble, but the effect is the same.  i am thinking of two Chinese women (a mother and daughter) who decided this past spring to go view the cherry blossoms at Wuhan University in China wearing homemade kimonos amidst crowds of other Chinese, some of whom then started hurling abuse at them and ran them out of the park.  presumably they themselves were perfectly "welcome" on Chinese territory until they put on the "indecent" clothing which was "not in keeping with accepted standards of what is right or proper in polite society".  that case also supports my notion that intent to upset others is what may differentiate "indecency" that may be prohibited by law from "indecency" that is in the eye (or head) of the beholder and therefore is not acceptable for the state to proscribe (as I claim burqas are a case of).

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 09:02:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure a drunk man peeing in public has any intent to disturb yet he'll be sued for indecency all the same...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 09:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More generally, the only part of the French penal code where intent is important in defining a crime or felony is the murder/homicide distinction.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.  But even if it does not exist in legal codes, it is possible that subconsciously "intent" is the criterion operative in labelling one thing "indecent" enough to outlaw and another thing just "indecent" but legally tolerable.  Having said that, the public urination example you bring up is indeed problematic when trying to characterize "proscribable indecency" through the presence or absence of intent.

Still, resorting to the "I knows it when I sees it" rule for indecency and then invoking it to brand and ban burkas seems unsatisfying and arbitrary to say the least, and potentially dangerous.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why long debate is needed, and was made in the case of the veil in schools. Debate on forbidding the burqa "everywhere" hasn't been done thoroughly, and Sarko isn't the kind to let debate foster, so his actions on this field are indeed dangerous.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 11:28:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweden has indeceny laws on paper but those are rarely enforced, except when the occasional streeker aims to get arrested.

What is enforced is sexual harassment laws in public places. The main difference here is that this needs a victim for the harassment.

Actually, in Sweden a burqa is one of the safest ways to dress. After the Gothenbourg riots in 2001 a law was enacted to ban being masked in a riot, thus making sure there is always one crime a masked youth has committed if there is a riot. To not have to use this law in other circumstances, heavy clothing is allowed if needed for temperature reasons (even if there is a riot) and an excemption was also made for religious attire.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 02:58:55 PM EST
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