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No... The burqa isn't a religious problem (it is of course, but not in the way you describe it). The same feeling applies for hoods and masks (Venice).

  • You don't see well the face (from police/security to socialization)... Another common example would be the full helmet for bikers, try to ask your way with such a helmet and you'll see people backing a few steps as if in fear of being mugged. Get the deLuxe version of the helmet with the lower part that opens easily and the same people will answer and get nearer... (simple test I do everyday)!

  • It's not ethnic... Whatever exotic people will have peculiar dress that won't even move a brow of french people (again because the face can be seen).

  • It's not religious in the sense that it's not against islam peculiarly... Even our nuns have lost their peculiar clothes in public activity. Those left are in convents and not in society. The kids hood are just as frowned upon as full burqa.

The scarves in various fashion is not felt the same way as the full veil, as hats, caps, vs hoods...!

Again, this is a misunderstanding between those who tags those garments as religious and those who don't ! Islam is pretty well lived in France and is not segregated (I must insist). While class, and where you live is still selective !

And by the way, the "car burqa" (the tinted windows of a car) has been unlawful for quite a while... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 11:09:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree. How can you claim that the head coverings are not religious? The purpose is precisely to separate and mark the woman as someone who belongs to a particular religious tradition which is stricter than the general community (this is also true for nuns etc). It is not simply a useful cloth to protect the hair, or a fashion accessory. It is there to give guarantees of modesty and chastity which are important in strict Islamic cultures, and to keep women in the social place that the religion assigns to them.

BTW, I am not claiming that Muslims as a whole are not well integrated in France or that Islam must disappear, I am arguing that the minority which imposes strict rules on their women are in contradiction with the values of the fifth French Republic, and this is why there necessarily is a clash.

The State must uphold and preserve the republican values which are described in the French constitution (in the same way, the American State must preserve the American constitution, which is different, etc). If a community diverges strongly from these values (and in fact the radical Islamic interpretation not only strongly clashes with these values, but offers a completely different and well developed civilisation), then the (French) State has no choice but must take action to impose the (French) constitutional values on this community.

It is really a question of which comes first in France, the State or the religion?

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 09:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
How can you claim that the head coverings are not religious?
There are large populations of autochtonous, christian Europeans where older women wear headdress. See kcurie's comments upthread about rural Spain 50 years ago (and you can see the same things in the Balkans and in the Mediterranean - I bet you a fair fraction of Bulgarian, Greek, Sicilian rural grandmothers dress in black and cover their heads still today.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 06:05:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not proof. Europe has Christian baggage just as other parts (I'll refrain from using the word Middle East ;) have Muslim baggage.

What you need to argue is that covering a woman's head with a scarf etc does not imply values which are promoted by religion. One could start by asking if the head covering were denounced by early religious leaders as pagan, and only accepted grudgingly over time. I am not qualified to make socio-historical remarks of this precision.

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by martingale on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 09:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Head scarves are common in rural Finland. There is a very simple non-religious explanation: scarves protect the hair, both from disarray in the wind, and from dust etc. Where access to showers, hairdressers etc is limited, the scarf is an important part of the practical wardrobe.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 03:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the first somewhat persuasive argument I've read in this thread. What do they call the male scarf in rural Finland?

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by martingale on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 06:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's called a bandage.

Only available at Emergency Treatment centers.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 10:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen those, they usually come in red and white, yes? A lot of kids these days like to wear them around the arm as a sign of rebellion.



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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 07:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember?

10 Uses for a Silk Scarf : The List Maven - Lists of Beauty Tips, Fashion Advice and Shopping Suggestions

or this one?

This used to be the hight of fashion. I still have some of these scarves. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 09:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You cannot impose values.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 06:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you can make values a condition for citizenship. Like you can make ethnicity a condition of citizenship. Or you can decide longstanding residence is the only requirement for citizenship.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 06:12:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you test for values?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 06:17:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
How do you test for values?
Ask the French or Americans what the procedure is for acquiring their citizenship.

Anyway, the obvious way is some sort of questionnaire. Adherence to values can be faked, of course.

You can then fall back on behaviours as evidence of values. This naturally leads to "a burqa disqualifies you for French citizenship".

On "which values?", there was a time when France and the US were Enlightened nations but nowadays even France has a Head of State who believes they're "Christian Nations" so the kinds of "values tests" that are applied to people are becoming less palatable to lefties... But still, Sarkozy will have some success in getting French leftists to support his racist policy because they agree on the "secular republican values" principle. Or at least he'll paralyse them into indecision over whether banning the Burqa is civic or racist.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 06:25:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You cannot impose values.
Yet that is what the law does every day in many different areas of society. Although it doesn't function by adjusting the values in people's brains, rather the law functions by ex post facto punishment if a person deviates explicitly from what is listed as acceptable in the law books.

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by martingale on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 09:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the law isn't imposing values, it's punishing behaviour.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 02:13:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The effect is the same. The values of the Republic/Monarchy/etc are policed, which is the only thing that matters to the state.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 02:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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