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In that frame, the "leaky" conservative christian subculture is freaking out that the "muslim" subculture might acquire political clout. Which might be behind the speech which motivated this discussion in the first place.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 07:05:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's quite a simplification.

Sarko's motivation is that he wants to get the far right voters to support him ; that includes the conservative christians, but quite a lot of the racist supporters are just racist and want a racially defined French society.

But he knows he won't be criticised on the burqa subject because quite a bit of the left sees the burqa as the instrument of a fundamentalist muslim subsociety and thus don't like it.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 07:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A simplification it may be, but not very different from

your own

Compare to what counts in France as the haute bourgeoisie, which consciously creates a segregated education system for it kids, enforces marriage within the class through social disapproval, and is able to get members of the class in the Elysée.

Compare to a mythical muslim subsociety which would only vote for communautarian parties, which would send the kids to private muslim schools, and whose women would be practically unable to communicate with the outside society because of the burqa.

Obvious reasons mean that Sarko denounces the mythical later subsociety rather than the earlier one...



A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 07:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Part of the haute bourgeoisie is catholic, but a fair bit of it definitely isn't... And quite a lot of the catholics aren't from the haute bourgeoisie.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 07:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.

But from the other side, there's also the implication that as long as Muslims play the game by not challenging existing symbol systems head-on, they can be 'assimilated' and allowed to fit into the usual round of social aspiration and imitation - which is the true state religion, even if the state likes to pretend that it's purely secular and doesn't do any overt ritual or social management.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 07:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the usual round of social aspiration and imitation - which is the true state religion, even if the state likes to pretend that it's purely secular and doesn't do any overt ritual or social management.

I would not call it State religion, but State ideology. And I would say that in France the State does not pretend anything of the sort: the ritual and social management are definitely part of the acknowledged fabric of French society.

Again, this goes back to a point that I made earlier in this thread: that active State interventionism is something conscious, acknowledged and supported by large majorities in the country.

And that's why many on the left will support some form of action against burqas (not forbidding them in the street, because that's just impossible and silly, but forbidding them in regulated places like schools and hospitals, with the full symbolic impact of such limited measures) even though they are fully aware of his racist mongering. That's France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 09:27:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
I would not call it State religion, but State ideology
I have an ideology, you have a religion, he has a delusion.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 09:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FarEasterner, what was the warning (2 rating) for?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 25th, 2009 at 10:23:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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