based on my limited knowledge of the burqa and cultures in which it is worn, i do have the strong impression that it is a sign of subjugation. but it is not for me nor for the state to take that my subjective impression, my subjective interpretation, as the basis for allowing or prohibiting people from wearing it.
Jerome a Paris: do you wilfully ignore France's history of the State legitimacy being built, over the past 2 centuries, largely against religions?
what you mean by "willfully ignore"? i am basically but not sufficiently well informed about France's antagonistic historical relationship with organized religion. what is its connection here, as you see it?
Jerome a Paris: Or do you disagree with the legitimacy of a State to impose common rules of behavior upon its citizens?
no, i do not disagree with that. Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
In my case yes and no. I know that history quite well, yet IMO it is the partisans of these sorts of policies who are willfully ignoring it. In one case we have an embattled secular state limiting the use of symbols by a powerful lobby dedicated to imposing a regression to the past, with massive support. In the current one we have an arrogant majority made up of a combination of blind 'secularists', racists, and raw opportunists who seek to mobilize the state against an embattled majority who already suffers from marginalization and racism. And yes there are the legitimate arguments about the meaning of the burqa that afew brings up, just as there were legitimate arguments about religious freedom that could be brought to bear against the Third Republic laws of the past. However, for me what is decisve in this case is the ugliness of a historically hegemonic majority imposing its will on an oppressed minority. It is not a continuation of the French secular tradition but rather akin to white communities in the US outlawing specifically black or hispanic cultural markers.
Why is everybody all the time trying to impose the American model on France, and calls any attempt to do differently, or any suggestion that there can be different ways to do things, "anti-Americanism" or "intolerance" or "arrogant"?
Amazing. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Now to the extent of imposing values and models, well to an extent, yes. But I'm a little surprised at your outrage at that. The majority of your output is devoted to just that - touting the superiority of the continental socio-economic model over the 'Anglo-Saxon' one. Are we Americans supposed to get all angry every single time you do that? More importantly, do you really think that 'well that's the American way' is a convincing counter-argument?
I'm not claiming the French model is better than the US one, just that it works better than is said in the English-language press, and that it is overwhelmingly supported in France.
And yes, I'm trying to push back against the US model being imposed on us on every single area of policy. I'm not trying to push the French model on anybody (well, maybe on some topics in Europe, but that's the extent of it) and I'm not making any commentary on the US model of integration, which I think also works, just differently. Why can't you return the courtesy?
Basically, any articl that talks about "Muslims" in France instead of "Arabs" and "Africans" has an agenda and yes I will fight that back.
That does not excuse racism in France, not racist or fearmongering policies, but I think I've been reasonably consistent in writing agaisnt these. So excuse me when I write that ,despite these trends, the French model is not broken and should be defended, in general if not in all its current political specifics. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
Whether it's a Burqa or a hooded T-Shirt, those who wear it, tend to say, that they feel "better", shielded from the "hostile" outside world !
The point in France is that the outside world wouldn't be as "hostile" if each individual would participate fully instead of re-creating it's own community (the "civitas" thing). Voting laws or correcting older ones is for the people as a whole! Ok, it's no perfect, but the path seems to us better then to allow a galaxy of villages in a close knitted community.
It's not about religions mostly (even if I agree that I'm not so sure about Sarko's discourse :-) ), it's not either about a clothing style or fashion, it's about not needing any of those "gimmicks" to shield or slow down, integration in the french society... And that works with french kids as well as freshly arrived immigrants.
I do believe that this subject IS a rift in EU. The discussions already takes places in urbanism between the tenants of the "Cluster of villages" and the tenants of the "Polis"... It's insidious as the technical parts seems identical, but the end isn't...! The "greening" of our politics as of our landscapes, brings "ready to use" models from northern europe that won't fit in our southern societies, with the danger then of rejecting everything instead of adapting what's appropriate. "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
you mean minority, surely? A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
The fact that the old jew district was in immediate neighborhood of the gay one must have had some influence maybe ? :-)
To be a bit more serious, there was some shooting in the "rue des rosiers" and a bombing at the Copernic synagogue twenty years ago. Even the orthodox went into low profile since. And many have migrated to Israel... "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
But again, we're not talking about forbidding any dress in the street altogether.
Note that there is not significant net immigration to Israel of French Jews In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
