Display:
Either they're both inflationary/deflationary or neither is.  Just as many here have argued that CPI operating on rents rather than house prices was understating inflation, it should also be the case that the same now understates deflationary pressures.  If you add house prices in the states, for example, to CPI, you find that we've gone from rapid inflation to rapid deflation (greater than 6% annual, I believe).

I have mixed feelings on it.  As I'm most concerned with how prices impact the working class and the poor, I want a reliable measure of what it takes to get by, and with that in mind the rent measure makes sense to me, since owning a house is not necessary.

On the other hand, it's helpful to have a measure of what the typical family buys, and as a bit over 65% of people own their homes here, the rent figure is not really an accurate reflection of the last few years.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 07:38:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I keep suggesting median disposable income as a useful measure of the health of the real economy - with a footnote about single earners with single jobs.

I suspect it's somewhat negative, or at least very close to zero, at the moment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 07:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You would need to go deeper on it than disposable income to get the full story.  Per Wiki, median disposable income -- this is in the US, obviously -- was about $27,640 in 2005 (last paragraph in the section).

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 09:53:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting. I'd like to know how they calculate 'disposable', because $27,640pa to spare on non-essentials would be unimaginable riches for at least half the population.

I suppose there was still a middle class in 2005. The most recent numbers would be interesting too.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 10:36:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dug around a bit: Median asking rent in '05 was apparently a little over $600/month (Table 11).  Quick and dirty, that's about right given the disposable income level.  It's actually a little low, historically, as I think the traditional guideline on housing is one-third of after-tax income or about a quarter of before-tax income.  Before-tax income would be a bit below $44,000 at the time, so a bit below $3600/month.

That has to be taken in the context of a housing bubble, of course, in which case rents should've been abnormally low.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 10:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it just after taxes, or is it after quasi-compulsory spending like healthcare coverage, pension contributions and housing?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 11:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it would simply be after-tax income in this case, although it may include the quasi-compulsory spending that would often be deducted directly from the paycheck by the employer (401(k), health care, etc), but I'm certain it would not include housing.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 11:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but I'm certain it would not include housing.

Living under bridges and dumpster diving for your dinner, after all, are matters of discretion.


As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 01:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where you live is a matter of discretion.

I would think that much would be clear after the Great Housing Crash.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 02:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny thing is that Arkansas escaped both the boom and the bust.  My property is worth more today than when I bought it in Nov. 2005.  Not that there was not nor that there is not poverty.  Far from it.  But we are still closer to the land here than in most places.  A surprising number of people still have the skills and knowledge to live off the land when things get tough.  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 03:17:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the country never became outrageously overpriced.  It was mainly the Southwest, parts of the Northeast (not Philly or Baltiless), San Francisco, and Florida.  A little bit of "froth," as Uncle Alan would say, in other areas, but nothing like Miami, Vegas or Phoenix where it was Armageddon once the money stopped flowing and people suddenly realized they were living in Miami, Vegas and Phoenix.

Prices are crashing here (finally), but it isn't really doing too much damage to the local economy.  Unemployment was at about 3.6% when the labor market peaked, and now it's up to about 4%.  Obviously having the relative stability of federal jobs, especially at a time when the government is expanding at a fast pace and with a lot more to come, helps with that, so it's not really fair to compare it with other places.

But I have a hard time imagining, based purely on the price and income numbers, that the remaining bubbletowns -- and we're basically down to Boston, New York and DC now -- will see anything like what happened to South Florida, where it was, literally, street after street of seeing every third or fourth house either on the market, as the owners tried to bail, or already foreclosed.  My parents' bought their house in 2001 a little before things took off, and it nearly quadrupled in value by the 2005 peak.  It's nearly back down to where it was when they bought it.

And that was in an area that was apparently not hit too hard compared with others.  Miami was much worse.  Prices peaked around $400k (about 10-15x income).  That's in the third-poorest of the major American cities (trailing only Detroit and New Orleans).

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 10:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, I just realized that I had misread "discretionary" for "disposable" above.  My bad.

OTOH, I agree strongly that the stimulus was and remains insufficient and I have no qualms about spending much more, especially on alternative energy or on anything that will improve our national accounts balance.  My concern is that all of the money spent or pledged on the financial sector is and will be shown to be totally wasted.  The Fed has loaded up on toxic assets paid for with the cleanest US currency available.  When they need to withdraw liquidity to prevent inflation, when the economy starts heating up and commodities start increasing in price, they will be unable to sell those assets at anything like the price they paid for them and will only be able to withdraw liquidity at the rate of dimes for dollars.  That, at least, is the sense I have gotten from some of the more cautious "inflation hawks."

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 03:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series