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I agree with Jerôme re the Tobin tax, but I don't agree that time-of-purchase is a sure diagnostic of speculation. In fact, who but a speculator or insider of some sort can buy tasty securities at time of issue?

By this criteria, would not every middle class person with a investment portfolio containing common stocks count as a speculator?

by PIGL on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PIGL:
In fact, who but a speculator or insider of some sort can buy tasty securities at time of issue?
Rights issues are usually open to the public. Insiders profit hugely from their existing equity share suddenly acquiring a large liquid value. You can also buy treasury bonds at the time of issue if you like.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:26:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rights issues (here in the UK) are open only to existing shareholders.

A shareholder can choose to sell on his/her right to buy those additional shares, but only these "leftovers" make their way to sale, and not necessarily to the public. They might be sold to institutional investors in a job lot, for instance.  The same often happens when new equity is issued without going down the rights route: the shares are often placed directly with big investors and are not offered to the public.

by Sassafras on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then 1) how did the existing shareholders acquire their shares in the first place; 2) if there's nothing but institutional shareholders, why do we pretend that the interests of shareholders somehow intersect with the interests of the voting public?

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:42:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it was actually a PN on company law (which may in any case only apply in the UK).  However:

  1. Through either a public issue/subscription (which does happen, but not all that often, because it's a lot easier for a company to issue 1,000,000 shares each to four investors than sell 4,000,000 shares in blocks of 500) or the secondary market.

  2. In theory, the money managed by the institutional shareholders belongs to the voting public.  Pension schemes, annuities, endowment policies, share ISAs, etc etc etc...
by Sassafras on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:57:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
it's a lot easier for a company to issue 1,000,000 shares each to four investors than sell 4,000,000 shares in blocks of 500
That's why companies don't do rights issues by themselves but enlist investment banks as "underwriters" and for "placement".

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
In theory, the money managed by the institutional shareholders belongs to the voting public.  Pension schemes, annuities, endowment policies, share ISAs, etc etc etc...
Yes, but when I subscribe a pension scheme, buy units in a trust, or get an ISA, I don't actually own any stock. I am giving the fund manager my money and getting a return indexed to the performance of his fund, but I don't have any rights as a shareholder in the companies the fund manager invests in, because he does the share purchases, not I.

A man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds; a man of deeds and not of words is like a garden full of turds — Anonymous
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.  However, the value of your pension/ISA depends on the pooled performance of the shares bought with everyone's money and held by the institutional investor. So your interests are pretty much identical to those who own shares directly.  Except, as you point out, without voting rights.

But I know you know this, so are we at cross purposes over definitions?

if there's nothing but institutional shareholders, why do we pretend that the interests of shareholders somehow intersect with the interests of the voting public?

I took "interests" to mean "the desire/need for security of and return on savings" and the "voting public" to mean "average citizens". So my reply was, I thought, the practical point that most people do have interests that rely directly on the performance of shares, even if, legally, they're a step away from being shareholders themselves.

(That doesn't, obviously, make the current system any less rotten. More so, if anything.  But I don't think there is really any "shareholder class" separate from the rest of us whose genuine interests lie in an unsustainable fast buck. Apart from bonus-driven fund managers, that is.)

by Sassafras on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 01:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I may be at risk of becoming just as predictable repetitive as Chris on banking reform, but let me repeat once more: There is nothing wrong with insolvent private pension funds that cannot be solved by better public pensions. And if improving the public pension system is considered politically unacceptable, there is nothing to prevent the political system from bailing out failing pension funds without bailing out the companies whose shares are plummeting and causing the private pension crisis.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 03:05:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the USA buying of Initial Public Offerings of stock is tightly controlled for the profit of the "underwriters" and their favored clients.  Absent strong rules to control this behavior, a better measure of "investing" vs. "speculation" could be the length of time the stock is held.  I would suggest that the capital gains tax be set to decline by 2% per year down to a fixed value around 20% after seven years.  Selling loosing stocks would not be penalized and holding winners would be rewarded.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 01:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, this approach is similar to "back end loaded" fees on mutual funds, so it is hardly a novel concept to the market.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jun 24th, 2009 at 01:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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